4 ms·

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world

One of those silly toxic grievance ideas, that you should only enjoy fiction when the protagonist looks like you, has the same gender and so on. Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? It was just a work of fiction, after all. Do white girls obsess over black dolls? We have a black doll, that my white wife grew up with. I don't think it disturbed her in any way.

Kye 7y ago
There are entire industries built around helping people of color look and act more white. One of the early post-abolition black businesses sold hair straightening products. Toni Morrison's writing was based on real lived experiences. You don't know what you don't know. Now you know there are things outside your knowledge and experience. Take this as an opportunity to look deeper. Personally, I do enjoy finally seeing more queer characters on TV and in movies who aren't stereotypes and who aren't killed off to make cisgender and heterosexual people cry. I know a lot of people of color who are ecstatic over improving representation in the same way.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  "hair straightening products" - there are also products or procedures to give white people more curly hair, or tan their skin. That really doesn't prove anything. "Take this as an opportunity to look deeper." The sheer arrogance in that statement. Being queer or whatever doesn't make you special. Sorry.
magpi3 7y ago
If it doesn't matter, then why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? If people enjoyed protagonists regardless of their ethnicity or gender, then why isn't fiction more diverse? Why are almost all DC and Marvel superheroes white males? Etc. > Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? Apparently, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark#Doll_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark#Doll_e...
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  Why are many characters white? Because many writers are white. Should white authors write books with non-white heroes? Wouldn't that result in an outcry about cultural appropriation and things like that? Never mind that it would presumably be difficult to credibly describe the experience of people you have not experienced yourself? Are there many non-white authors writing books with white heroes/heroines? Maybe they should just write more books about people who "look like them"? A lot of popular children books actually have female heroines, like Pippa Longstocking, Astrid Lindgren being one of the most popular authors of children's books. I never had a problem enjoying them, strange enough. It never occurred to me as a kid that I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy reading those books, because the protagonists have the wrong gender. Good thing today's children have better education on such issues - god forbid they could enjoy a book of the wrong identification!!! What about Lord of the Rings, should PoC be able to enjoy that book? Should it be considered a hate crime to recommend the book to a PoC? Should the government give out a grant for someone to write an alternative to Lotr with PoC heroines? Female Superheroes exist, but it is also only one rather silly genre (and only two publishers). Plus, there are other reasons why action heroes tend to be male: because men are expendable and therefore supposed to do the dangerous work, as in real life. Superheroes are a lie, anyway, but to tell women they could simply be action heroes would be an even greater lie. As for the experiment: "These findings exposed internalized racism in African-American children, self-hatred that was more acute among children attending segregated schools" - that is clearly an unwarranted interpretation of the result, fueled by ideology. And wanting to play with white dolls is not "obsessing" over white dolls.
- mises 7y ago
  > why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? I can't speak to every single case, but Harry Potter is a British franchise by origin. England is over 92% white. It does stand to reason that a fantasy novel set in England would feature mostly white characters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingd...
gowld 7y ago
Were ALL your dolls black? No.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  Black dolls exist, though. What black momma bought their kids only white dolls???
  - PascLeRasc 7y ago
    In this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20316831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20316831) you used the formal term "mother" . Why did you switch to "momma" when talking about Black families?
    - bubblewrap 7y ago
      Just for fun, going with the scenario. Why not? Edit: rate limited by HN, so here is my reply to the question below: Racist - seriously? So "momma" is not a word that is ever used? Is it a word from the AAVE - so why would it be mocking the AAVE? I'm not a native speaker of English. But honestly, I don't care about that level of political correctness. I doubt that using "momma" is as big of a deal as you make it sound. Edit 2: no being black doesn't imply speaking differently, but the scenario here was poor oppressed black girls obsessing over white dolls, with mothers who don't care to buy them black dolls. Also, just because I used "momma" doesn't imply all blacks only ever say "momma". What weird twisted logic is that? In the same vein, if I had used "mother", I wouldn't have denied black identity by claiming no black people ever say "momma". If you are offended by little things like that, then sure, your life will be difficult. Lighten up! (no pun intended - I mean the mood, not your skin color). I am actually a bit offended by you being offended, by the way! Why do you think so badly of me, without even knowing me (interpreting my words in the worst way)? It seems you have a lot of bias against me.
      - PascLeRasc 7y ago
        It comes across as racist and mocking of AAVE. Is that fun for you?
dang 7y ago
Would you please stop taking HN threads further into ideological flamewar? It's tedious and off topic here, and amounts to vandalism. We've had to ask you this before. Edit: actually, since you did this twice in as many days, I've banned your account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use HN as intended in the future. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Kye 7y ago

There are entire industries built around helping people of color look and act more white. One of the early post-abolition black businesses sold hair straightening products. Toni Morrison's writing was based on real lived experiences. You don't know what you don't know. Now you know there are things outside your knowledge and experience. Take this as an opportunity to look deeper. Personally, I do enjoy finally seeing more queer characters on TV and in movies who aren't stereotypes and who aren't killed off to make cisgender and heterosexual people cry. I know a lot of people of color who are ecstatic over improving representation in the same way.

bubblewrap 7y ago
"hair straightening products" - there are also products or procedures to give white people more curly hair, or tan their skin. That really doesn't prove anything. "Take this as an opportunity to look deeper." The sheer arrogance in that statement. Being queer or whatever doesn't make you special. Sorry.

magpi3 7y ago

If it doesn't matter, then why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? If people enjoyed protagonists regardless of their ethnicity or gender, then why isn't fiction more diverse? Why are almost all DC and Marvel superheroes white males? Etc. > Do real world PoC even ever obsess over white female dolls with blue eyes? Apparently, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark#Doll_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark#Doll_e...

bubblewrap 7y ago
Why are many characters white? Because many writers are white. Should white authors write books with non-white heroes? Wouldn't that result in an outcry about cultural appropriation and things like that? Never mind that it would presumably be difficult to credibly describe the experience of people you have not experienced yourself? Are there many non-white authors writing books with white heroes/heroines? Maybe they should just write more books about people who "look like them"? A lot of popular children books actually have female heroines, like Pippa Longstocking, Astrid Lindgren being one of the most popular authors of children's books. I never had a problem enjoying them, strange enough. It never occurred to me as a kid that I shouldn't be allowed to enjoy reading those books, because the protagonists have the wrong gender. Good thing today's children have better education on such issues - god forbid they could enjoy a book of the wrong identification!!! What about Lord of the Rings, should PoC be able to enjoy that book? Should it be considered a hate crime to recommend the book to a PoC? Should the government give out a grant for someone to write an alternative to Lotr with PoC heroines? Female Superheroes exist, but it is also only one rather silly genre (and only two publishers). Plus, there are other reasons why action heroes tend to be male: because men are expendable and therefore supposed to do the dangerous work, as in real life. Superheroes are a lie, anyway, but to tell women they could simply be action heroes would be an even greater lie. As for the experiment: "These findings exposed internalized racism in African-American children, self-hatred that was more acute among children attending segregated schools" - that is clearly an unwarranted interpretation of the result, fueled by ideology. And wanting to play with white dolls is not "obsessing" over white dolls.
mises 7y ago
> why are fantasy characters (even today, even in Harry Potter which is extremely recent) overwhelmingly white? I can't speak to every single case, but Harry Potter is a British franchise by origin. England is over 92% white. It does stand to reason that a fantasy novel set in England would feature mostly white characters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingdom#Ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_Kingd...

gowld 7y ago

Were ALL your dolls black? No.

bubblewrap 7y ago
Black dolls exist, though. What black momma bought their kids only white dolls???
- PascLeRasc 7y ago
  In this comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20316831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20316831) you used the formal term "mother" . Why did you switch to "momma" when talking about Black families?
  - bubblewrap 7y ago
    Just for fun, going with the scenario. Why not? Edit: rate limited by HN, so here is my reply to the question below: Racist - seriously? So "momma" is not a word that is ever used? Is it a word from the AAVE - so why would it be mocking the AAVE? I'm not a native speaker of English. But honestly, I don't care about that level of political correctness. I doubt that using "momma" is as big of a deal as you make it sound. Edit 2: no being black doesn't imply speaking differently, but the scenario here was poor oppressed black girls obsessing over white dolls, with mothers who don't care to buy them black dolls. Also, just because I used "momma" doesn't imply all blacks only ever say "momma". What weird twisted logic is that? In the same vein, if I had used "mother", I wouldn't have denied black identity by claiming no black people ever say "momma". If you are offended by little things like that, then sure, your life will be difficult. Lighten up! (no pun intended - I mean the mood, not your skin color). I am actually a bit offended by you being offended, by the way! Why do you think so badly of me, without even knowing me (interpreting my words in the worst way)? It seems you have a lot of bias against me.
    - PascLeRasc 7y ago
      It comes across as racist and mocking of AAVE. Is that fun for you?

dang 7y ago

Would you please stop taking HN threads further into ideological flamewar? It's tedious and off topic here, and amounts to vandalism. We've had to ask you this before. Edit: actually, since you did this twice in as many days, I've banned your account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll use HN as intended in the future. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html