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> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you includ

> I had to consider the idea: how would those books have affected me if all characters looked nothing like me? FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. I guess in my case it was more important to relate to their background and their skills (or lack of ;-) than who their parents were, and where they grew up.

erikpukinskis 7y ago
Yeah, there’s a lot of “identification as” in our discourse lately, but I have been thinking a lot about “identification with”. Growing up I identified with many people who I know are not me. And some of the things I identify as bring me great discomfort.
ergothus 7y ago
> FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. But you didn't and don't lack for options. I'm a straight white man from America. No matter what personal, family, and economic difficulties I've faced: - I have literal decades of seeing other white men in a variety of roles. I can pick and choose from the stereotypes I want to put in high regard, emulate, or dismiss, not 3 or 4. - growing up, there was no blanket treatment of me or people others decided I was like outside of choices I made. I could adopt "redneck" habits/dress, or "frat boy", or "nerd", or "jock", but I had control over whether I was identified as a "thug", or " aggressive", or "professional". - Because "my" culture was broadcast everywhere (TV/movies/books/magazines), I was never regarded as "weird" or "threatening" because people weren't accustomed to anything I'd do or say or how I'd dress. As a kid, I was freaked out by the first black person I met, because his palms were a lighter color than the rest of his skin. That's a stupid thing to be freaked out by, but it was _different_ to me because I didn't see it anywhere. It wasn't "normal" My skin color, in return, was very "normal" looking to him, because fish-belly-pale is hardly a skin color that is hard to see in any community - just turn on the TV. Growing up in a more diverse area I would have seen more and wouldn't have had that reaction - but turn on the TV and it was still monochromatic. As a kid I regularly teased a girl in my grade (a friend!) for her hairstyle, because it wasn't "normal". Of course, it was quite normal - if you have those genes, or see anyone that does. Again, put me in a more diverse world and I'd have seen it...but what did she see on TV? in movies? on magazine covers? And there were "black" TV shows, and "black" magazines...but everything else wasn't "white" - it was "normal". Which meant "not black". I had, and have, the liberty of choice because "normal" includes me, and I can choose if I want to include it. But if "normal" was defined to exclude me, what kinds of choices would I have? I might become a "well-spoken" and "clean" black man!
- davesmith1983 7y ago
  My grandmother cries when describing the poverty they lived in when she was a child (1930s) in Newcastle (Northern England). Nobody had it easy in the past. Well done for falling for the propaganda that racially divides people and is frequently sold by activists to people like yourself who seem to have bought it. People of all colours and creeds will try to garner sympathy from the other group by claiming how disadvantaged they are. The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it to the top of society. These people constantly bring up slavery that happened during the colonial period but they never mention what is currently happening in Qatar where foreign workers building the world cup stadium are effectively slaves. This is happening today not over a hundred years in the past, if they feel so strongly about slavery why aren't they shouting from the rooftops about this? That is why I know this is done because these actors (quite rightly I believe) think it will give them political power because they will claim they have no representation while being broadcast on the very media they claim to have no representation in.
  - MrRadar 7y ago
    ??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? > The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it to the top of society. And yet the people at the "top of society" disproportionately come from a just a few of those groups. :thinking-emoji: > ... what is currently happening in Qatar ... Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. > while being broadcast on the very media they claim to have no representation in. Minorities have much better access and representation in media today than they did in the past but it's still far from equal, particularly on the business side which has major influence over our media because that's where decisions are made about which projects get funded and which don't.
    - davesmith1983 7y ago
      > ??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? Absolutely everything. This myth there hasn't been representation of minorities or women completely neglecting the fact that there has been plenty going back to mid 20th century. > Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed, but we can try to improve the future. > Minorities have much better access and representation in media today than they did in the past but it's still far from equal, particularly on the business side which has major influence over our media because that's where decisions are made about which projects get funded and which don't. Do white people have equal representation in Thai Cinema? What about rich white people always playing the bad guys there? This is a lie that is constantly sold to constantly sow racial division and people like you trot it out over and over again. All it does is divide people and allow both Black and White racist to whip up hatred.
dang 7y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161.
rc_hadoken 7y ago
I'm black African. And most of my role models don't look like me. Musashi, Taleb, Frederick Douglas is in there as an exception etc. But when I look at someone who has accomplished what I want to the first thing that adds to motivation is not that they look like me...this is a wildly debilitating mindset I know it exists but lets not make it out to be healthy.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Maybe if you were African American it would be that they would have overcome similar skin color based obstacles
  - selimthegrim 7y ago
    https://nypost.com/2019/08/01/mechanic-switches-gears-to-become-doctor-at-47/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/01/mechanic-switches-gears-to-bec...

erikpukinskis 7y ago

Yeah, there’s a lot of “identification as” in our discourse lately, but I have been thinking a lot about “identification with”. Growing up I identified with many people who I know are not me. And some of the things I identify as bring me great discomfort.

ergothus 7y ago

> FWIW: Several of my role models - if you include people who are not alive, people I've only read about - are not white males. But you didn't and don't lack for options. I'm a straight white man from America. No matter what personal, family, and economic difficulties I've faced: - I have literal decades of seeing other white men in a variety of roles. I can pick and choose from the stereotypes I want to put in high regard, emulate, or dismiss, not 3 or 4. - growing up, there was no blanket treatment of me or people others decided I was like outside of choices I made. I could adopt "redneck" habits/dress, or "frat boy", or "nerd", or "jock", but I had control over whether I was identified as a "thug", or " aggressive", or "professional". - Because "my" culture was broadcast everywhere (TV/movies/books/magazines), I was never regarded as "weird" or "threatening" because people weren't accustomed to anything I'd do or say or how I'd dress. As a kid, I was freaked out by the first black person I met, because his palms were a lighter color than the rest of his skin. That's a stupid thing to be freaked out by, but it was _different_ to me because I didn't see it anywhere. It wasn't "normal" My skin color, in return, was very "normal" looking to him, because fish-belly-pale is hardly a skin color that is hard to see in any community - just turn on the TV. Growing up in a more diverse area I would have seen more and wouldn't have had that reaction - but turn on the TV and it was still monochromatic. As a kid I regularly teased a girl in my grade (a friend!) for her hairstyle, because it wasn't "normal". Of course, it was quite normal - if you have those genes, or see anyone that does. Again, put me in a more diverse world and I'd have seen it...but what did she see on TV? in movies? on magazine covers? And there were "black" TV shows, and "black" magazines...but everything else wasn't "white" - it was "normal". Which meant "not black". I had, and have, the liberty of choice because "normal" includes me, and I can choose if I want to include it. But if "normal" was defined to exclude me, what kinds of choices would I have? I might become a "well-spoken" and "clean" black man!

davesmith1983 7y ago
My grandmother cries when describing the poverty they lived in when she was a child (1930s) in Newcastle (Northern England). Nobody had it easy in the past. Well done for falling for the propaganda that racially divides people and is frequently sold by activists to people like yourself who seem to have bought it. People of all colours and creeds will try to garner sympathy from the other group by claiming how disadvantaged they are. The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it to the top of society. These people constantly bring up slavery that happened during the colonial period but they never mention what is currently happening in Qatar where foreign workers building the world cup stadium are effectively slaves. This is happening today not over a hundred years in the past, if they feel so strongly about slavery why aren't they shouting from the rooftops about this? That is why I know this is done because these actors (quite rightly I believe) think it will give them political power because they will claim they have no representation while being broadcast on the very media they claim to have no representation in.
- MrRadar 7y ago
  ??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? > The reality is that there are plenty of people from all races that have made it to the top of society. And yet the people at the "top of society" disproportionately come from a just a few of those groups. :thinking-emoji: > ... what is currently happening in Qatar ... Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. > while being broadcast on the very media they claim to have no representation in. Minorities have much better access and representation in media today than they did in the past but it's still far from equal, particularly on the business side which has major influence over our media because that's where decisions are made about which projects get funded and which don't.
  - davesmith1983 7y ago
    > ??? What does that have anything to do with the comment you replied to? Absolutely everything. This myth there hasn't been representation of minorities or women completely neglecting the fact that there has been plenty going back to mid 20th century. > Classic whataboutism. We can care about multiple things at the same time. Not at all. Slavery in Qatar is happening today, not in the past. The past can't be changed, but we can try to improve the future. > Minorities have much better access and representation in media today than they did in the past but it's still far from equal, particularly on the business side which has major influence over our media because that's where decisions are made about which projects get funded and which don't. Do white people have equal representation in Thai Cinema? What about rich white people always playing the bad guys there? This is a lie that is constantly sold to constantly sow racial division and people like you trot it out over and over again. All it does is divide people and allow both Black and White racist to whip up hatred.

dang 7y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20626161.

rc_hadoken 7y ago

I'm black African. And most of my role models don't look like me. Musashi, Taleb, Frederick Douglas is in there as an exception etc. But when I look at someone who has accomplished what I want to the first thing that adds to motivation is not that they look like me...this is a wildly debilitating mindset I know it exists but lets not make it out to be healthy.

selimthegrim 7y ago
Maybe if you were African American it would be that they would have overcome similar skin color based obstacles
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  https://nypost.com/2019/08/01/mechanic-switches-gears-to-become-doctor-at-47/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/01/mechanic-switches-gears-to-bec...