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Is it common for knowledge workers to fantasize about more labor intensive work from time to time? Because I definitely found myself relating to that sentiment.

Is it common for knowledge workers to fantasize about more labor intensive work from time to time? Because I definitely found myself relating to that sentiment. Usually my mind goes to construction or carpentry in those moments. My favorite part of this is the acknowledgement of the enjoyment to be found embracing the 'degenerate' as the author calls it. I can strongly relate to needing a good, stupid, socially-unacceptable laugh sometimes.

ska 7y ago
I think it's pretty common. It can sometimes be solved by talking to some 45 year old carpet layers about their knees, carpenters/framers about their backs & wrists, etc. It is nice to be able to put your hands on something you've done though.
- mgreenleaf 7y ago
  Hmm, just a thought, but maybe that is an argument against the hyper-specialization of modern society. It would be nice to choose different things throughout a day/week/year, all productive, and all requiring some skill, but each one being a bit different providing physical or mental exercise of different types. Bending over all day to build something might not be great for humans, but sitting in a chair all day focusing probably isn't either. It would be nice to arrange a productive society that gave people the opportunity to move between the different types of productivity.
  - ska 7y ago
    I don't think this is a new phenomena at all. Anthropologists can tell a lot about old civilizations by characteristic injuries, after all. I suspect that people have been screwing up their bodies with repetitive motions/positions since at least the dawn of agriculture. I suppose it is telling that this was the better alternative. I've known people who have constructed working lives for themselves that try and achieve this balance, but it is a difficult thing to do. I expect that it usually has an economic penalty of some sort, but if at least some of the work pays well it's not crazy. One way to manage it would be to find lucrative work roughly 1/2 time (i.e. "knowledge work" contracts) and then very intentionally spend the rest of your time outside and doing something active. If you've ever tried to negotiate a short week for less pay you'll probably realize this is difficult to arrange.
    - Infernal 7y ago
      > I suppose it is telling that this was the better alternative. Presumably you mean "better for the individual", but I don't believe this is an assumption we can make. It seems clear that agriculture was better in a competitive sense than other ways of life at the time, though likely worse for many of the individuals involved.
      - ska 7y ago
        That was sloppy, sorry. I should have added "perceived" as there, or scare quotes on 'better'; I meant it in the sense that this was the path that was collectively chosen, i.e. the one that "won".
      - whiddershins 7y ago
        Actually I think it was clearly better at the group survival/displacement of other groups level. There’s no evidence it was necessarily better for any particular insividual’s quality of life.
    - your-nanny 7y ago
      hell, you can tell smokers by the I dentation in their bones, or so I was told by one forensic anthropologist.
  - mlevental 7y ago
    “For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in a society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.”
    - jerf 7y ago
      That made some faint sense when he said it, though even that is easy to overestimate as many tasks of the day required more skill than Marx probably appreciated, but is gibbering lunacy if you want a 21st century technological society. Only a few people are honest enough to say they want socialism and would be perfectly happy to live an 18th century life to have it. Example: You could just pick up and be a farmer tomorrow, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywBV6M7VOFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywBV6M7VOFU Certainly not at a 21st century farmer level. (Consider your criticisms of that idea carefully, for instance "yeah but those practices aren't sustainable" will just get you "sustainable practices are going to be just as challenging or even more so" in reply, along with the fact it's not really a relevant point; M(r/s). I Decided To Be A Farmer This Week isn't going to come up with breakthrough solutions in sustainability, either, as they will be far too busy.)
      - mlevental 7y ago
        ...the quotation isn't a factual claim about skills necessary and no one who isn't a gibbering lunatic reads it that way. i was responding to someone who is very skilled (presumably) wishing they didn't need to be so specialized. edit: lots of people willfully misconstrue things. the same goes for Marx. if you've read any of the volumes of capital you'd understand that marxist positions aren't as asinine as "everyone needs to be a farmer in order for socialism to be viable".
- coldtea 7y ago
  >It can sometimes be solved by talking to some 45 year old carpet layers about their knees, carpenters/framers about their backs & wrists, etc. I know many manual laborers who have far better physique, strength, and health than the average sedentary programmer, so there's that... The key is to be an independent craftsman, and not e.g. lay carpets as an employee (at the businesses pace and mercy), or stand all day, etc...
  - ska 7y ago
    Yes, that wasn't a general condemnation of trades, just noting that many of them have typical occupational injuries also. In some trades it really hits you at 50+, when your options for retraining are limited. The ratio of independents to employees suggest a lot of people aren't in the situation you describe
  - onemoresoop 7y ago
    To add to that, who are tired at the end of the day in a healthy physical way and most don't have problems with their sleep.
  - matfil 7y ago
    The key is to be an independent craftsman, and not e.g. lay carpets as an employee (at the businesses pace and mercy), or stand all day, etc... I think most work is -- at the very least -- bearable given enough independence/autonomy. Programming can certainly be pretty joyful given a reasonably open-ended project and a quiet spot to sit. It's getting the autonomy that's the tricky bit.
- bitL 7y ago
  Exoskeletons might help with that soon.
bradstewart 7y ago
I often find myself romanticizing the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. I'm certainly not suggesting modern society be dismantled, but there's something intriguing, attractive even, about the simplicity of that life.
- thedanbob 7y ago
  I think this is why I enjoy backpacking once in a while. Sure, it’s nowhere close to actually “living off the land” but it’s still a challenge to survive out in the woods in the middle of winter with just what you can carry on your back. It also makes me more aware and appreciative of all the comforts and conveniences I have when I get home.
- merpnderp 7y ago
  I've always thought I tasted a bit of this lifestyle when I went on a week long backpacking trip in Rocky Mountain National. Only brought enough food for half the trip and planned on eating fist to supplement. By the time we caught any fish we barely brazed them over a fire before eating them raw, and then decided to pack out the next day because this sucked.
- your-nanny 7y ago
  is it simple? maybe only in our imaginations.
- prometheus76 7y ago
  Rule 1: Always have a plan for the day. Theorem 1: If you accomplish half of your plan for the day, you had a very unusual day. Rule 2: Be ready, at a moment's notice, to drop your plan for the day to pursue an unusual opportunity. Theorem 2: You might not always be rewarded for your enthusiasm, however. And, at first, you will see many "opportunities" that are actually distractions from the task you are avoiding. Time and seasoning will give you discernment. Rule 3: Be aware, at a moment's notice, that you will have to drop your plans and focus on an unexpected emergency. Re-build what broke so that it won't break the same again next time. Rule 4: You can start practicing now by skipping meals, or even skipping a day of eating on occasion. Also, sleep on the floor with a light blanket sometimes. Don't wear a coat to work sometimes. Take cold showers. Practice being uncomfortable. Practicing makes it easier to absorb being uncomfortable when you don't have a choice in the matter. Rule 5: While you will be met by frequent surprises and challenges, you will also be bored at times. Practice being comfortable with being bored by walking more, with no headphones, no podcasts, no music. Just you and your thoughts. Rule 6: You will always be building and re-building a plan for the day, but that plan should always be fitting into a context of the season that is coming next. What you do today makes the next season more comfortable, or at least, survivable. Theorem 3: You can judge how well you are surviving and adapting to the challenges of your environment by how long out into the future your planning reaches. Theorem 4: To romanticize this as "simplicity" is to grossly underestimate the mental fortitude and resilience required to focus on the matter at hand while continuing to rebuild a plan for the near future, all without losing your shit and giving up. Not to mention, grossly underestimating the creativity with which Nature can surprise you. (The numbering doesn't really matter, but theorem 1 is related to rule 1, and theorem 2 is related to rule 2. Mostly, it was just a way of separating my thoughts.)
jhoechtl 7y ago
I am a knowledgeworker. I defenitely find myself more and more doing things by hand. I own a tractor, mulcher, chain saw by now (just to name the more massive machinerey besides the ton of small machines) I like doing things by hand. But I am generally a hard working man, by hand or when using my head. Two observations:either work can become obsessive. When you start working with your hands for leasure, this can become a burden on it's own. But even more so: I do not need to make living out of carrying for my land. And: the grass looks always greener on the other side of the river!
- asark 7y ago
  I'm pretty sure, left to my own devices, my life would be a series of weeks largely focusing on one or two things each. Some of these might last as long as a month or two, for bigger projects. Focused programming for a couple weeks, then a week of working on my house, then a week of garden building & set-up, then a week of working on music, a three-week run of research and writing, and so on. What sucks is spending 50ish weeks a year doing 40 hours/wk of the same damn thing. I don't hate hard work—I love it—I hate lack of autonomy to choose what to work on, in a very broad sense. Work is nice, jobs are fucking awful.
  - bootsz 7y ago
    This x1000. You've basically described my dream lifestyle. It does seem indeed very hard to achieve without being retired, but I feel like for those making good money in tech it should be at least partially achievable, through a combination of proper money management, relocation to low cost of living area, and transitioning to freelance/consulting. Easier said than done but certainly not impossible .
jetrink 7y ago
I worked outdoors for ten years of summers and now I have worked ten years indoors as a programmer. I often fantasize about going back outdoors again. What I miss most is how easy it is to start and stop working. Starting your workday is as easy as pulling on your boots and stepping out of the truck. You don't need to mentally reorient yourself and focus as you do when working with source code. A thirty minute break is meaningful. It means sitting in the shade, having a friendly chat, maybe taking a quick nap. Getting back in the truck at the end of the day feels great and feels conclusive. After programming, it takes me an hour or more to leave the mental state of work and to feel normal again. I work from home, but the mental commute still adds to my workday.
- your-nanny 7y ago
  I don't disagree exactly, but cannot help but think focus and all that is requisite to successfully avoiding sawing off your thumb, and so forth. My dad was a carpenter, and I always went out of my way to not distract or surprise him when he was working with power tools. Besides, a lot of carpentry requires planning and precision, and there is no undo button...
PedroBatista 7y ago
You ( and many people, including me ) are attracted to the romanticized version of what you think such job is. There are valid reasons for this, anyone who works with software for a while feels that he works so much but never made something you could actually touch and always has to explain to people the real value of his work because it's not obvious for the "common folk" ( even your boss ). So, making a deck is a physical, obvious and long lasting thing you can be proud of and easily pointed out when you seek for approval/praise ( everyone wants/needs that, some more than others )
- Notorious_BLT 7y ago
  I know all jobs are jobs, and all work is work, and I have no plans to bail on my software job for another field. But like you mention, the tangible, physical, lasting product of your efforts is an attractive concept. That's probably the reason I like to make stuff in my spare time, and why I prefer to show that stuff off rather than talk about my work most of the time. I don't have to explain why my work is interesting or important. Even if the stuff I make isn't 'important', people can appreciate a finished physical thing and the work that went into it, and I can dive into details about how I made it and the choices I made.
ip26 7y ago
I heard once, people who have intellectual jobs tend to have physical hobbies. People who have physical jobs tend to have intellectual hobbies. It seems to be pretty accurate.
esoterica 7y ago
I think it’s only common for male knowledge workers. American culture brainwashes men into believing that they are less manly if they don’t do physical work, and men who internalize that message feel emasculated by their desk jobs. They don’t realize that their dissatisfaction is not an intrinsic facet of the human condition but an artifact of very specific cultural prejudices. Women often complain about their office jobs too, but you rarely see them fantasizing about being able to swing a hammer for a living because they weren’t subject to the same cultural programming.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  I'm not sure about that, Fred Flintstone made a big deal about wanting an office job.
  - munificent 7y ago
    How much of that was because in that context "office job" meant "management" which in turn implies being in a position of leadership as opposed to under someone else?
- im3w1l 7y ago
  Men and women both have a biological need to move and use their bodies. How we express our needs (eg swinging a hammer) is decided by culture, but the need is not.

ska 7y ago

I think it's pretty common. It can sometimes be solved by talking to some 45 year old carpet layers about their knees, carpenters/framers about their backs & wrists, etc. It is nice to be able to put your hands on something you've done though.

mgreenleaf 7y ago
Hmm, just a thought, but maybe that is an argument against the hyper-specialization of modern society. It would be nice to choose different things throughout a day/week/year, all productive, and all requiring some skill, but each one being a bit different providing physical or mental exercise of different types. Bending over all day to build something might not be great for humans, but sitting in a chair all day focusing probably isn't either. It would be nice to arrange a productive society that gave people the opportunity to move between the different types of productivity.
- ska 7y ago
  I don't think this is a new phenomena at all. Anthropologists can tell a lot about old civilizations by characteristic injuries, after all. I suspect that people have been screwing up their bodies with repetitive motions/positions since at least the dawn of agriculture. I suppose it is telling that this was the better alternative. I've known people who have constructed working lives for themselves that try and achieve this balance, but it is a difficult thing to do. I expect that it usually has an economic penalty of some sort, but if at least some of the work pays well it's not crazy. One way to manage it would be to find lucrative work roughly 1/2 time (i.e. "knowledge work" contracts) and then very intentionally spend the rest of your time outside and doing something active. If you've ever tried to negotiate a short week for less pay you'll probably realize this is difficult to arrange.
  - Infernal 7y ago
    > I suppose it is telling that this was the better alternative. Presumably you mean "better for the individual", but I don't believe this is an assumption we can make. It seems clear that agriculture was better in a competitive sense than other ways of life at the time, though likely worse for many of the individuals involved.
    - ska 7y ago
      That was sloppy, sorry. I should have added "perceived" as there, or scare quotes on 'better'; I meant it in the sense that this was the path that was collectively chosen, i.e. the one that "won".
    - whiddershins 7y ago
      Actually I think it was clearly better at the group survival/displacement of other groups level. There’s no evidence it was necessarily better for any particular insividual’s quality of life.
  - your-nanny 7y ago
    hell, you can tell smokers by the I dentation in their bones, or so I was told by one forensic anthropologist.
- mlevental 7y ago
  “For as soon as the distribution of labour comes into being, each man has a particular, exclusive sphere of activity, which is forced upon him and from which he cannot escape. He is a hunter, a fisherman, a herdsman, or a critical critic, and must remain so if he does not want to lose his means of livelihood; while in a society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.”
  - jerf 7y ago
    That made some faint sense when he said it, though even that is easy to overestimate as many tasks of the day required more skill than Marx probably appreciated, but is gibbering lunacy if you want a 21st century technological society. Only a few people are honest enough to say they want socialism and would be perfectly happy to live an 18th century life to have it. Example: You could just pick up and be a farmer tomorrow, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywBV6M7VOFU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywBV6M7VOFU Certainly not at a 21st century farmer level. (Consider your criticisms of that idea carefully, for instance "yeah but those practices aren't sustainable" will just get you "sustainable practices are going to be just as challenging or even more so" in reply, along with the fact it's not really a relevant point; M(r/s). I Decided To Be A Farmer This Week isn't going to come up with breakthrough solutions in sustainability, either, as they will be far too busy.)
    - mlevental 7y ago
      ...the quotation isn't a factual claim about skills necessary and no one who isn't a gibbering lunatic reads it that way. i was responding to someone who is very skilled (presumably) wishing they didn't need to be so specialized. edit: lots of people willfully misconstrue things. the same goes for Marx. if you've read any of the volumes of capital you'd understand that marxist positions aren't as asinine as "everyone needs to be a farmer in order for socialism to be viable".
coldtea 7y ago
>It can sometimes be solved by talking to some 45 year old carpet layers about their knees, carpenters/framers about their backs & wrists, etc. I know many manual laborers who have far better physique, strength, and health than the average sedentary programmer, so there's that... The key is to be an independent craftsman, and not e.g. lay carpets as an employee (at the businesses pace and mercy), or stand all day, etc...
- ska 7y ago
  Yes, that wasn't a general condemnation of trades, just noting that many of them have typical occupational injuries also. In some trades it really hits you at 50+, when your options for retraining are limited. The ratio of independents to employees suggest a lot of people aren't in the situation you describe
- onemoresoop 7y ago
  To add to that, who are tired at the end of the day in a healthy physical way and most don't have problems with their sleep.
- matfil 7y ago
  The key is to be an independent craftsman, and not e.g. lay carpets as an employee (at the businesses pace and mercy), or stand all day, etc... I think most work is -- at the very least -- bearable given enough independence/autonomy. Programming can certainly be pretty joyful given a reasonably open-ended project and a quiet spot to sit. It's getting the autonomy that's the tricky bit.
bitL 7y ago
Exoskeletons might help with that soon.

bradstewart 7y ago

I often find myself romanticizing the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. I'm certainly not suggesting modern society be dismantled, but there's something intriguing, attractive even, about the simplicity of that life.

thedanbob 7y ago
I think this is why I enjoy backpacking once in a while. Sure, it’s nowhere close to actually “living off the land” but it’s still a challenge to survive out in the woods in the middle of winter with just what you can carry on your back. It also makes me more aware and appreciative of all the comforts and conveniences I have when I get home.
merpnderp 7y ago
I've always thought I tasted a bit of this lifestyle when I went on a week long backpacking trip in Rocky Mountain National. Only brought enough food for half the trip and planned on eating fist to supplement. By the time we caught any fish we barely brazed them over a fire before eating them raw, and then decided to pack out the next day because this sucked.
your-nanny 7y ago
is it simple? maybe only in our imaginations.
prometheus76 7y ago
Rule 1: Always have a plan for the day. Theorem 1: If you accomplish half of your plan for the day, you had a very unusual day. Rule 2: Be ready, at a moment's notice, to drop your plan for the day to pursue an unusual opportunity. Theorem 2: You might not always be rewarded for your enthusiasm, however. And, at first, you will see many "opportunities" that are actually distractions from the task you are avoiding. Time and seasoning will give you discernment. Rule 3: Be aware, at a moment's notice, that you will have to drop your plans and focus on an unexpected emergency. Re-build what broke so that it won't break the same again next time. Rule 4: You can start practicing now by skipping meals, or even skipping a day of eating on occasion. Also, sleep on the floor with a light blanket sometimes. Don't wear a coat to work sometimes. Take cold showers. Practice being uncomfortable. Practicing makes it easier to absorb being uncomfortable when you don't have a choice in the matter. Rule 5: While you will be met by frequent surprises and challenges, you will also be bored at times. Practice being comfortable with being bored by walking more, with no headphones, no podcasts, no music. Just you and your thoughts. Rule 6: You will always be building and re-building a plan for the day, but that plan should always be fitting into a context of the season that is coming next. What you do today makes the next season more comfortable, or at least, survivable. Theorem 3: You can judge how well you are surviving and adapting to the challenges of your environment by how long out into the future your planning reaches. Theorem 4: To romanticize this as "simplicity" is to grossly underestimate the mental fortitude and resilience required to focus on the matter at hand while continuing to rebuild a plan for the near future, all without losing your shit and giving up. Not to mention, grossly underestimating the creativity with which Nature can surprise you. (The numbering doesn't really matter, but theorem 1 is related to rule 1, and theorem 2 is related to rule 2. Mostly, it was just a way of separating my thoughts.)

jhoechtl 7y ago

I am a knowledgeworker. I defenitely find myself more and more doing things by hand. I own a tractor, mulcher, chain saw by now (just to name the more massive machinerey besides the ton of small machines) I like doing things by hand. But I am generally a hard working man, by hand or when using my head. Two observations:either work can become obsessive. When you start working with your hands for leasure, this can become a burden on it's own. But even more so: I do not need to make living out of carrying for my land. And: the grass looks always greener on the other side of the river!

asark 7y ago
I'm pretty sure, left to my own devices, my life would be a series of weeks largely focusing on one or two things each. Some of these might last as long as a month or two, for bigger projects. Focused programming for a couple weeks, then a week of working on my house, then a week of garden building & set-up, then a week of working on music, a three-week run of research and writing, and so on. What sucks is spending 50ish weeks a year doing 40 hours/wk of the same damn thing. I don't hate hard work—I love it—I hate lack of autonomy to choose what to work on, in a very broad sense. Work is nice, jobs are fucking awful.
- bootsz 7y ago
  This x1000. You've basically described my dream lifestyle. It does seem indeed very hard to achieve without being retired, but I feel like for those making good money in tech it should be at least partially achievable, through a combination of proper money management, relocation to low cost of living area, and transitioning to freelance/consulting. Easier said than done but certainly not impossible .

jetrink 7y ago

I worked outdoors for ten years of summers and now I have worked ten years indoors as a programmer. I often fantasize about going back outdoors again. What I miss most is how easy it is to start and stop working. Starting your workday is as easy as pulling on your boots and stepping out of the truck. You don't need to mentally reorient yourself and focus as you do when working with source code. A thirty minute break is meaningful. It means sitting in the shade, having a friendly chat, maybe taking a quick nap. Getting back in the truck at the end of the day feels great and feels conclusive. After programming, it takes me an hour or more to leave the mental state of work and to feel normal again. I work from home, but the mental commute still adds to my workday.

your-nanny 7y ago
I don't disagree exactly, but cannot help but think focus and all that is requisite to successfully avoiding sawing off your thumb, and so forth. My dad was a carpenter, and I always went out of my way to not distract or surprise him when he was working with power tools. Besides, a lot of carpentry requires planning and precision, and there is no undo button...

PedroBatista 7y ago

You ( and many people, including me ) are attracted to the romanticized version of what you think such job is. There are valid reasons for this, anyone who works with software for a while feels that he works so much but never made something you could actually touch and always has to explain to people the real value of his work because it's not obvious for the "common folk" ( even your boss ). So, making a deck is a physical, obvious and long lasting thing you can be proud of and easily pointed out when you seek for approval/praise ( everyone wants/needs that, some more than others )

Notorious_BLT 7y ago
I know all jobs are jobs, and all work is work, and I have no plans to bail on my software job for another field. But like you mention, the tangible, physical, lasting product of your efforts is an attractive concept. That's probably the reason I like to make stuff in my spare time, and why I prefer to show that stuff off rather than talk about my work most of the time. I don't have to explain why my work is interesting or important. Even if the stuff I make isn't 'important', people can appreciate a finished physical thing and the work that went into it, and I can dive into details about how I made it and the choices I made.

ip26 7y ago

I heard once, people who have intellectual jobs tend to have physical hobbies. People who have physical jobs tend to have intellectual hobbies. It seems to be pretty accurate.

esoterica 7y ago

I think it’s only common for male knowledge workers. American culture brainwashes men into believing that they are less manly if they don’t do physical work, and men who internalize that message feel emasculated by their desk jobs. They don’t realize that their dissatisfaction is not an intrinsic facet of the human condition but an artifact of very specific cultural prejudices. Women often complain about their office jobs too, but you rarely see them fantasizing about being able to swing a hammer for a living because they weren’t subject to the same cultural programming.

whatshisface 7y ago
I'm not sure about that, Fred Flintstone made a big deal about wanting an office job.
- munificent 7y ago
  How much of that was because in that context "office job" meant "management" which in turn implies being in a position of leadership as opposed to under someone else?
im3w1l 7y ago
Men and women both have a biological need to move and use their bodies. How we express our needs (eg swinging a hammer) is decided by culture, but the need is not.