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So that begets the question, why do the Fins allow the Russian to use their planes as target practice by keeping silent?

Svip 7y ago
Maybe there is some truth to the West German term 'Finlandisation'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
- apecat 7y ago
  Finn here. Finlandization is absolutely a thing, it's even mentioned OP's Fine Article on Finnair Flight 915 ;) National-level Finnish politicians still weigh their statements on matters such as the imperialist endeavors of our beloved eastern neighbor. Other institutions are gradually becoming less self-censored. Someone better informed, or just older than my 30-or-so years can probably be more precise and offer more and better examples. But I have the sense that internationally renowned journalist Jessikka Aro's reporting on Russian disinfo ops wouldn't have been encouraged, yet translated to English and Russian by Finnish state-owned broadcaster Yle before, say, 2005 https://kioski.yle.fi/omat/jessikka-aros-prize-winning-stories-on-russian-propaganda https://kioski.yle.fi/omat/jessikka-aros-prize-winning-stori...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
greedo 7y ago
When you're a small country living next to a very powerful one, you learn to mind your manners.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  Or join NATO, which the Baltic states did at the first opportunity. Finland has always refused, although apparently they did think about it in 2007. Ukraine also had the opportunity, didn’t take it, and it didn’t work out so well for them.
  - hollerith 7y ago
    When in your opinion did Ukraine have the opportunity to join NATO? Can you reference a short passage somewhere that says as much?
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      The MAP in 2008? It’s pretty common knowledge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - hollerith 7y ago
        It is common knowledge that Ukraine applied to join NATO. I'm interested in your implication that they were ever offered membership. I doubt they ever were because I think the United States (and probably other members) considered an offer too likely to risk a war with Russia.
        goatinaboat 7y ago
        Right, Ukraine applied and NATO responded with a Membership Action Plan, it clearly would not have done that if it didn’t want Ukraine as a member. Really Ukraine should have made NATO membership a condition of giving up its nukes when the USSR collapsed.
        hollerith 7y ago
        Nato writes on their web site that "Participation in the MAP does not prejudge any decision by the Alliance on future membership" https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37356.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37356.htm --in other words their being invited into a MAP does not mean they would have been invited to become a member. When the USSR collapsed, George Bush the elder was President, and he was one of the US's best Presidents on foreign policy, and no way he would've gone along with offering NATO membership to Ukraine. If the Obama adminstration was willing to do it, I find that depressing because NATO does not have the conventional military strength to defend Ukraine from a Russian invasion, and of course would be unwilling to launch a nuclear attack on Russia over the fate of Ukraine. It would be a mistake for NATO to make any public commitment it is not willing and able to keep. Credibility is essential for avoiding war.
- VBprogrammer 7y ago
  Are you Finnish? I'm not convinced many Fins would love that characterisation.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    Probably not, but that doesn’t make it wrong. There’s even a special term for it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
  - na85 7y ago
    I'm Canadian and agree that having a Great Power for a neighbor has a profound impact on federal policy, both foreign and domestic.
    - refurb 7y ago
      Meh... Canadians love to define themselves as "not Americans".
      - simlevesque 7y ago
        is that supposed to refute in any way that the parent said ? I'm canadian and he's right... we are not sovereign at all.
      - na85 7y ago
        That's a distinct but related social artifact of living next to a cultural hegemon. What I'm talking about is domestic and foreign government policy.
  - ryanlol 7y ago
    I’m sure most Finns would agree with that characterization. It’s certainly not a nation of very thin-skinned people.
  - greedo 7y ago
    Not Finnish. But Finland has fought two wars with the Russians in the last century, and without a protective alliance, really is at Russia's mercy. Look at what happened to Georgia. I'm a realpolitik guy, so I don't often mince my words.
kingofpandora 7y ago
Do you actually believe that the Soviets used Finnish airplanes as target practice?

Svip 7y ago

Maybe there is some truth to the West German term 'Finlandisation'? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

apecat 7y ago
Finn here. Finlandization is absolutely a thing, it's even mentioned OP's Fine Article on Finnair Flight 915 ;) National-level Finnish politicians still weigh their statements on matters such as the imperialist endeavors of our beloved eastern neighbor. Other institutions are gradually becoming less self-censored. Someone better informed, or just older than my 30-or-so years can probably be more precise and offer more and better examples. But I have the sense that internationally renowned journalist Jessikka Aro's reporting on Russian disinfo ops wouldn't have been encouraged, yet translated to English and Russian by Finnish state-owned broadcaster Yle before, say, 2005 https://kioski.yle.fi/omat/jessikka-aros-prize-winning-stories-on-russian-propaganda https://kioski.yle.fi/omat/jessikka-aros-prize-winning-stori...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

greedo 7y ago

When you're a small country living next to a very powerful one, you learn to mind your manners.

goatinaboat 7y ago
Or join NATO, which the Baltic states did at the first opportunity. Finland has always refused, although apparently they did think about it in 2007. Ukraine also had the opportunity, didn’t take it, and it didn’t work out so well for them.
- hollerith 7y ago
  When in your opinion did Ukraine have the opportunity to join NATO? Can you reference a short passage somewhere that says as much?
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    The MAP in 2008? It’s pretty common knowledge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - hollerith 7y ago
      It is common knowledge that Ukraine applied to join NATO. I'm interested in your implication that they were ever offered membership. I doubt they ever were because I think the United States (and probably other members) considered an offer too likely to risk a war with Russia.
      - goatinaboat 7y ago
        Right, Ukraine applied and NATO responded with a Membership Action Plan, it clearly would not have done that if it didn’t want Ukraine as a member. Really Ukraine should have made NATO membership a condition of giving up its nukes when the USSR collapsed.
        hollerith 7y ago
        Nato writes on their web site that "Participation in the MAP does not prejudge any decision by the Alliance on future membership" https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37356.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_37356.htm --in other words their being invited into a MAP does not mean they would have been invited to become a member. When the USSR collapsed, George Bush the elder was President, and he was one of the US's best Presidents on foreign policy, and no way he would've gone along with offering NATO membership to Ukraine. If the Obama adminstration was willing to do it, I find that depressing because NATO does not have the conventional military strength to defend Ukraine from a Russian invasion, and of course would be unwilling to launch a nuclear attack on Russia over the fate of Ukraine. It would be a mistake for NATO to make any public commitment it is not willing and able to keep. Credibility is essential for avoiding war.
VBprogrammer 7y ago
Are you Finnish? I'm not convinced many Fins would love that characterisation.
- mikeash 7y ago
  Probably not, but that doesn’t make it wrong. There’s even a special term for it: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization
- na85 7y ago
  I'm Canadian and agree that having a Great Power for a neighbor has a profound impact on federal policy, both foreign and domestic.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Meh... Canadians love to define themselves as "not Americans".
    - simlevesque 7y ago
      is that supposed to refute in any way that the parent said ? I'm canadian and he's right... we are not sovereign at all.
    - na85 7y ago
      That's a distinct but related social artifact of living next to a cultural hegemon. What I'm talking about is domestic and foreign government policy.
- ryanlol 7y ago
  I’m sure most Finns would agree with that characterization. It’s certainly not a nation of very thin-skinned people.
- greedo 7y ago
  Not Finnish. But Finland has fought two wars with the Russians in the last century, and without a protective alliance, really is at Russia's mercy. Look at what happened to Georgia. I'm a realpolitik guy, so I don't often mince my words.

kingofpandora 7y ago

Do you actually believe that the Soviets used Finnish airplanes as target practice?