5 ms·

Really interested to hear more about the details, especially the format - will it be a single tournament or a cash game with thousands of hands? Since it's all

by dtran 16y ago

Really interested to hear more about the details, especially the format - will it be a single tournament or a cash game with thousands of hands? Since it's all bots playing, I assume they'll play through enough hands/tables to diminish/negate the role of luck. Will the bots adopt to patterns in the other bots' playing styles? Most interestingly, will a bot come out of this that can go head-to-head with the likes of Tom Dwan, Phil Ivey and other poker pros? Most bots I've heard of in online poker just follow a set of rules for what to do with certain hands in different positions and scenarios. A bot that can adapt/pick up on betting patterns from the other player (over the course of thousands or tens of thousands of hands) would be really cool.

eru 16y ago
How about playing duplicate poker to eliminate the luck factor, too? You can even make all bots play all positions. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_poker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_poker
heyitsnick 16y ago
I would expect most competitors will attempt to design a simplified GTO/balanced (un-exploitable) strategy, with some base assumptions what's considered as "good poker". The only way I can see teams approaching a more exploitive strategy is if the tournament was filled with lots of very weak 'house bots' with highly exploitive strategies (like the previous rock-sissors-paper bot competion that was filled with lots of non-GTO house bots that could be predicted and exploited). No known bots have come close to playing competitively heads up or ring in big-bet games (such as no-limit or PLO) above the micro/lowstakes. However bots already exist that are very strong at limit heads up.
- jaekwon 16y ago
  With enough number of hands played and space for storage of history it should be possible to exploit each other, or at least the opportunity is there.
  - heyitsnick 16y ago
    Certainly possible, and teams can utilise off-the-shelf analytics tools to aid in the analysis (if that's allowed); however using this information beyond very simple adjustments (such as preflop) is very difficult. Also any deviation from a balanced strategy will open up the bot to counter-exploitation. As I say if dummy players are in there (playing easily exploitable passive or maniacal strategy) then I think there's good reason to implement an exploitive strat; otherwise the effort probably won't have the payoff amongst other static-strategy players.
- Dn_Ab 16y ago
  Game theoretically optimal strategies for poker can only be reasonably approximated so there remains room for even these strategies to be exploited.
Dn_Ab 16y ago
I doubt it. Not for another 7-10 years at least to beat the likes of pros.
- jaekwon 16y ago
  Sources? I've always assumed that the bots are as good as the pros now even at high stakes. Haven't there been prized competitions where the bots beat the pros some years?
  - heyitsnick 16y ago
    I can't give you a direct source; but there is very little public progress to bots in big bet (NL/PL) games past very simplistic, rule-based bots that may fair okay in nano-stakes games. Of course there an outside chance that powerful bots do exist and are being employed in live games, but there's been no academic work that claims much access. However in limit games, where the game tree is finite and can be simplified, there's been great strides in poker AI. In heads up the level is expert-to-world class (see my other posts in this thread) and likely very strong in 6-max too. Academically the polaris team (uni of alberta) have published a great deal, and there are commercial/private bots that are considered very strong.
  - Dn_Ab 16y ago
    Perhaps I should I have clarified with No Limit. Yes heads up limit poker bots are pretty high standard. But No Limit (and 6+ players) is the real interesting game to solve.
- heyitsnick 16y ago
  In heads up limit, bots are already at a high class level, maybe world-class. If you want to test this, there's a HU limit bot machine in the Bellagio that's rake free and plays a fair game (fair deal, no knowledge of the cards to come or holecards). It currently spreads up to $10/20. The designers are confident enough to allow anyone to take it on. The bot employs a non-learning strategy.
  - deleted 16y ago

by dtran 16y ago

eru 16y ago

How about playing duplicate poker to eliminate the luck factor, too? You can even make all bots play all positions. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_poker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_poker

heyitsnick 16y ago

I would expect most competitors will attempt to design a simplified GTO/balanced (un-exploitable) strategy, with some base assumptions what's considered as "good poker". The only way I can see teams approaching a more exploitive strategy is if the tournament was filled with lots of very weak 'house bots' with highly exploitive strategies (like the previous rock-sissors-paper bot competion that was filled with lots of non-GTO house bots that could be predicted and exploited). No known bots have come close to playing competitively heads up or ring in big-bet games (such as no-limit or PLO) above the micro/lowstakes. However bots already exist that are very strong at limit heads up.

jaekwon 16y ago
With enough number of hands played and space for storage of history it should be possible to exploit each other, or at least the opportunity is there.
- heyitsnick 16y ago
  Certainly possible, and teams can utilise off-the-shelf analytics tools to aid in the analysis (if that's allowed); however using this information beyond very simple adjustments (such as preflop) is very difficult. Also any deviation from a balanced strategy will open up the bot to counter-exploitation. As I say if dummy players are in there (playing easily exploitable passive or maniacal strategy) then I think there's good reason to implement an exploitive strat; otherwise the effort probably won't have the payoff amongst other static-strategy players.
Dn_Ab 16y ago
Game theoretically optimal strategies for poker can only be reasonably approximated so there remains room for even these strategies to be exploited.

Dn_Ab 16y ago

I doubt it. Not for another 7-10 years at least to beat the likes of pros.

jaekwon 16y ago
Sources? I've always assumed that the bots are as good as the pros now even at high stakes. Haven't there been prized competitions where the bots beat the pros some years?
- heyitsnick 16y ago
  I can't give you a direct source; but there is very little public progress to bots in big bet (NL/PL) games past very simplistic, rule-based bots that may fair okay in nano-stakes games. Of course there an outside chance that powerful bots do exist and are being employed in live games, but there's been no academic work that claims much access. However in limit games, where the game tree is finite and can be simplified, there's been great strides in poker AI. In heads up the level is expert-to-world class (see my other posts in this thread) and likely very strong in 6-max too. Academically the polaris team (uni of alberta) have published a great deal, and there are commercial/private bots that are considered very strong.
- Dn_Ab 16y ago
  Perhaps I should I have clarified with No Limit. Yes heads up limit poker bots are pretty high standard. But No Limit (and 6+ players) is the real interesting game to solve.
heyitsnick 16y ago
In heads up limit, bots are already at a high class level, maybe world-class. If you want to test this, there's a HU limit bot machine in the Bellagio that's rake free and plays a fair game (fair deal, no knowledge of the cards to come or holecards). It currently spreads up to $10/20. The designers are confident enough to allow anyone to take it on. The bot employs a non-learning strategy.
- deleted 16y ago