7 ms·

Continuous 3D Printing Possible With Transparent Polygon Scanning?

90 points by hexa_storm 7y ago

tiozorak 7y ago
Hardware is the new frontier of open source, I'd like to see schematics/PCB versioning on GitHub, with diff viewer and stuff.
- inetknght 7y ago
  That sounds like an amazing idea and is pretty close to what I want as well.
  - hexa_storm 7y ago
    There is a blog here https://hackaday.io/project/21933-open-hardware-transparent-polygon-scanner/details https://hackaday.io/project/21933-open-hardware-transparent-... also provides all the link to github files. Design are made in Freecad, Kicad, C++ and Python. My main focus is on developing prior art. This needs to be done to prevent IP and "liberate" the technology from patent trolls.
    - hedora 7y ago
      You might want to consider publishing it in a prior art database like https://ip.com/ https://ip.com/ (no affiliation, and I don’t have any reason to endorse them over others.) You’ll likely want a lawyer, etc to make sure that it is properly protected, especially now that the US is “first to file” not “first to invent”. (I’m not a lawyer, you might be fine already...)
    - hexa_storm 7y ago
      Of course, what’s worse than a weak start is simply not starting at all. Moreover, if you’ve publicly disclosed your invention, then you have only a one-year grace period to apply for a patent. You forfeit your patent rights if you fail to file within the 1-year grace period. http://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/first-to-file-patent-rule/ http://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/first-to-file-patent-rule... In the EU.. you destroy immediately.. there is no grace period.
- bsmith 7y ago
  These guys have been trying to do something like that: https://upverter.com/ https://upverter.com/
- kriro 7y ago
  I'd settle for better PCB design tooling (or maybe I'm just unaware of good options). I feel like the tools are pretty archaic/inconvenient compared to stuff we have for software. Something like Eagle vs. some IDE feels very different.
stcredzero 7y ago
Netherlands-based Rik Starmans has devised something he calls “Transparent Polygon Scanning”, or “TPS”. Does this mean the linked article is a TPS report?
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  should have named it differently; I use a laser scanner with a prism instead of a mirror. A detailed description is here; https://reprap.org/wiki/Transparent_Polygon_Scanning https://reprap.org/wiki/Transparent_Polygon_Scanning
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    should have named it differently; Don't sweat it. I would guess that the name will amplify the amount of media attention it gets.
digdugdirk 7y ago
Hmmm... Seems interesting (and perhaps questionable?) from an infringement perspective. What possible recourse would the original "continuous printing" patent holder have now that this prismatic design has been open sourced, rather than used in a commercial application?
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  patents are expensive and you don't know the results.. Patent in my name is here https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/72/4e/1ee7792f56148f/US10114289.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/72/4e/1ee7792... .. but is for a plurality of sources. So I avoid my patent, I am author of :P
MisterTea 7y ago
The sad part of this whole article is this method of scanning a laser beam had to be devised to side step a patent that uses common galvanometers instead. So there isn't any new 3d printing technology here. Only a clever method to circumvent a silly patent.
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  That is indeed.. how i decided to brand it and this seems working. In reality both systems have different optical properties; this does matter if you push them to the limits. Galvanometers are slow, require more calibration. Rotating devices don't stand still at the end of a sweep and are much faster (10 times).
  - sydd 7y ago
    the concept is really cool, congrats! Can the prototype actually print? Do you have some photos of the printed stuff?
    - hexa_storm 7y ago
      This is how it prints on UV paper, https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/1013221548797737200.jpg https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/1013221548797737200.jpg . This is the calibration data recorded by imaging with the camera directly on a CMOS chip. You can count pixels.. this is what an expert needs to determine the quality. https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/calib_data.zip https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/calib_data.zip More data is here https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/21measurements.rar https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/21measurements.... pixel 4.65 microns. You can use opencv to do the trick. I added a little script in this one.
  - thawkins 7y ago
    Galvanometer based systems often suffer from acceleration issues at the start and end of the swing which limits the usable spread.
- mensetmanusman 7y ago
romwell 7y ago
If this is about photolitographic 3D printing with resin, then I say not much is being disrupted. Those printers aren't that expensive now; the resin itself is quite expensive though. The price of resin isn't directly comparable to the price of plastic used for FDM printing because one can print most models nearly hollow with FDM in an automated way (e.g. with honeybomb-like infill patterns), but I'm not aware of doing the same thing with resin with ease now, making the resin prints 10X the price of PLA ones. Better software would disrupt that tech though.
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  expensive is a matter of taste. The envisiontec 3SP costs well over 5K euros and can go up to 100K. You can only get a a price if you ask for a quote. Carbon 3D does not sell their printers you have to lease them. Formlabs does sell you a printer at 3.5K but you can't use third party resins, so you decide. I actually know some open-hardware printers which sell for 5K.
  - sydd 7y ago
    you can get an Anycubic Photon under $500, its a decent resin LCD printer.
    - opencl 7y ago
      The patent mentioned in the article is specifically for continuous SLA printing (no pauses for lifting/peeling between layers), which the photon and other similarly-priced models don't do. I have one of the cheap SLA printers, and the lifting can occupy over half the printing time depending on layer height/resin type. The continuous printing machines seem to start in the several-thousand-dollar range.
      - hexa_storm 7y ago
        the rotating reflective polygon patent is this one https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/29/68/46/da50635a85b615/US9079355.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/29/68/46/da50635... I think it is even more relevant but somehow it did not get posted.
patrickread 7y ago
Came here for the 3D printing of unicorn animals using lasers. Disappointing.
- DonHopkins 7y ago
  I prefer highly significant Bladerunneresque origami unicorns. https://br-insight.com/library/significance-of-the-unicorn/ https://br-insight.com/library/significance-of-the-unicorn/
gene-h 7y ago
I don't think it's that disruptive. One thing that the 2009 roadmap for additive manufacturing has emphasized is the need to move from point to line and area deposition[0]. This still scans a point like stereolithography has done since the beginning. We now have stereolithography machines capable of area deposition by using a DMD projector[1], often called DLP, that are approaching manufacturing products at high volume[2]. Some DLP stereolithography machines now have resolution on the order of 10 micrometers over a 160 mm by 50 mm area[2]. We're having to develop new ways to describe 3d geometry just so that we can take advantage of this resolution. So there is potential here for both fast and incredibly high resolution using DLP stereolithography. We've also seen the development that the 2009 additive manufacturing roadmap couldn't anticipate: volumetric deposition[3]. In addition, there are some potential disadvantages to prism scanning. Prism scanning can only do raster scans, we can't define the outline of a part in vector mode. Although I will admit that this may not be as much of a problem if we can control the brightness of our laser. In addition, in stereolithography it is advantageous to carry out raster scans perpendicular to each other, this is because the photopolymer contracts as it cures and scanning in both directions helps make this contraction uniform. [0]https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4716/c69f0b90a158589e54248a524a57ad78f4a3.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4716/c69f0b90a158589e54248a... [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpH1zhUQY0c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpH1zhUQY0c [2]https://www.carbon3d.com/case-studies/adidas/ https://www.carbon3d.com/case-studies/adidas/ [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xHZvUP1Ls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xHZvUP1Ls
- jacobolus 7y ago
  #3 is pretty neat. Paper: https://www.epfl.ch/labs/lapd/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ms3790.pdf https://www.epfl.ch/labs/lapd/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ms3... * * * Inre #1–2, Is anyone selling custom parts produced on that Carbon3D printer? That is, someone that ingests a shapefile (or whatever) and mails back a part printed on one of these machines?
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  DLP projection has a lot of advantages, the area projection is one of those. For large area beamers are moved; see moving light technology by prodways https://youtu.be/1AQJaqdrzzE https://youtu.be/1AQJaqdrzzE . There is no longer a real difference then. Lasers can go below 200 nm using dual photon (nanoscribe) or sted lithography.
bfrog 7y ago
Are there things beyond modeling where 3d printing is useful? The parts I've seen using dlp or sla never seem structurally useful to me. Sintered metal printing seems like although it may be less precise might be more useful structurally?
- joshvm 7y ago
  I've used nylon SLS for lab and commercial optical work. It's strong and you can tap it. It's much cleaner than dealing with resin prints. The quality is fine if you're making simple polygonal shapes and unless you need really fine detail it's enough. You can also do things easily with SLS which are really annoying to do with printer technologies that need removable supports, like cavities and overhangs.
  - hexa_storm 7y ago
    you can also combine it with optical coherence tomography and use it for detecting eye diseases or laser surgery...
- kriro 7y ago
  Small scale stuff you want on premise is a decent use case. The prime example being medical/dental. Imagine a patient with a crushed jarbone. You can model and print a custom prosthesis on premise and print it in maybe 16h-38h. Compare that to sending the job to some lab, custom molds being created and waiting for the item to be delivered (while the patient is waiting). I know it's used quite a bit for custom tooling as well. Think special tools needed on an assembly line in automotive where pausing the assembly is very expensive or lead times for some custom tool to grab a wheel while working on it and whatnot are expensive. I think one of the biggest success stories is cutsom made hearing aids. Return rate a lot lower, easier to iterate and produce the perfect fit etc. Another example (maybe a bit more high end) is turning some item that is made out of many parts into a single item both for cost saving and other reasons. Iirc NASA uses ultrasonic welding (which is 3d printing of sorts) for this.
  - bfrog 7y ago
ragebol 7y ago
Interesting, I've used something quite similar to the scanning-through-prism technology a few years ago, though with an 8-sided polygon for the application of exposing PCB masks. We were looking at 3D printing too IIRC. To get to the desired ~80x80cm PCB size and the accuracy needed, we had to achieve super high throughput and super low timing jitter on the UV-LEDs. Very interesting technology, unfortunately we took too long to get a smaller scale proto working and funding was cut right after we delivered that proto :-(. Calibrating the whole machine from scratch was clever too. Learned a lot there.
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  do you have a link?
  - ragebol 7y ago
    The domain name has lapsed, but some articles remain: - https://www.alexandergroenewege.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/eindhovens-dagblad-2015-09-09.pdf https://www.alexandergroenewege.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/0... - https://www.linkmagazine.nl/maskerloze-pcb-machine-ldi-systems-gaat-proefdraaien/ https://www.linkmagazine.nl/maskerloze-pcb-machine-ldi-syste... In Dutch unfortunately. Looking at OP's article, it could very well be that we had licensed some of the tech of the Rik Starmans mentioned int he article.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

90 points by hexa_storm 7y ago

Hardware is the new frontier of open source, I'd like to see schematics/PCB versioning on GitHub, with diff viewer and stuff.

inetknght 7y ago
That sounds like an amazing idea and is pretty close to what I want as well.
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  There is a blog here https://hackaday.io/project/21933-open-hardware-transparent-polygon-scanner/details https://hackaday.io/project/21933-open-hardware-transparent-... also provides all the link to github files. Design are made in Freecad, Kicad, C++ and Python. My main focus is on developing prior art. This needs to be done to prevent IP and "liberate" the technology from patent trolls.
  - hedora 7y ago
    You might want to consider publishing it in a prior art database like https://ip.com/ https://ip.com/ (no affiliation, and I don’t have any reason to endorse them over others.) You’ll likely want a lawyer, etc to make sure that it is properly protected, especially now that the US is “first to file” not “first to invent”. (I’m not a lawyer, you might be fine already...)
  - hexa_storm 7y ago
    Of course, what’s worse than a weak start is simply not starting at all. Moreover, if you’ve publicly disclosed your invention, then you have only a one-year grace period to apply for a patent. You forfeit your patent rights if you fail to file within the 1-year grace period. http://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/first-to-file-patent-rule/ http://www.patenttrademarkblog.com/first-to-file-patent-rule... In the EU.. you destroy immediately.. there is no grace period.
bsmith 7y ago
These guys have been trying to do something like that: https://upverter.com/ https://upverter.com/
kriro 7y ago
I'd settle for better PCB design tooling (or maybe I'm just unaware of good options). I feel like the tools are pretty archaic/inconvenient compared to stuff we have for software. Something like Eagle vs. some IDE feels very different.

stcredzero 7y ago

Netherlands-based Rik Starmans has devised something he calls “Transparent Polygon Scanning”, or “TPS”. Does this mean the linked article is a TPS report?

hexa_storm 7y ago
should have named it differently; I use a laser scanner with a prism instead of a mirror. A detailed description is here; https://reprap.org/wiki/Transparent_Polygon_Scanning https://reprap.org/wiki/Transparent_Polygon_Scanning
- stcredzero 7y ago
  should have named it differently; Don't sweat it. I would guess that the name will amplify the amount of media attention it gets.

digdugdirk 7y ago

Hmmm... Seems interesting (and perhaps questionable?) from an infringement perspective. What possible recourse would the original "continuous printing" patent holder have now that this prismatic design has been open sourced, rather than used in a commercial application?

hexa_storm 7y ago
patents are expensive and you don't know the results.. Patent in my name is here https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/72/4e/1ee7792f56148f/US10114289.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/43/72/4e/1ee7792... .. but is for a plurality of sources. So I avoid my patent, I am author of :P

MisterTea 7y ago

The sad part of this whole article is this method of scanning a laser beam had to be devised to side step a patent that uses common galvanometers instead. So there isn't any new 3d printing technology here. Only a clever method to circumvent a silly patent.

hexa_storm 7y ago
That is indeed.. how i decided to brand it and this seems working. In reality both systems have different optical properties; this does matter if you push them to the limits. Galvanometers are slow, require more calibration. Rotating devices don't stand still at the end of a sweep and are much faster (10 times).
- sydd 7y ago
  the concept is really cool, congrats! Can the prototype actually print? Do you have some photos of the printed stuff?
  - hexa_storm 7y ago
    This is how it prints on UV paper, https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/1013221548797737200.jpg https://cdn.hackaday.io/images/1013221548797737200.jpg . This is the calibration data recorded by imaging with the camera directly on a CMOS chip. You can count pixels.. this is what an expert needs to determine the quality. https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/calib_data.zip https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/calib_data.zip More data is here https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/21measurements.rar https://cdn.hackaday.io/files/21933938381472/21measurements.... pixel 4.65 microns. You can use opencv to do the trick. I added a little script in this one.
- thawkins 7y ago
  Galvanometer based systems often suffer from acceleration issues at the start and end of the swing which limits the usable spread.
mensetmanusman 7y ago

romwell 7y ago

If this is about photolitographic 3D printing with resin, then I say not much is being disrupted. Those printers aren't that expensive now; the resin itself is quite expensive though. The price of resin isn't directly comparable to the price of plastic used for FDM printing because one can print most models nearly hollow with FDM in an automated way (e.g. with honeybomb-like infill patterns), but I'm not aware of doing the same thing with resin with ease now, making the resin prints 10X the price of PLA ones. Better software would disrupt that tech though.

hexa_storm 7y ago
expensive is a matter of taste. The envisiontec 3SP costs well over 5K euros and can go up to 100K. You can only get a a price if you ask for a quote. Carbon 3D does not sell their printers you have to lease them. Formlabs does sell you a printer at 3.5K but you can't use third party resins, so you decide. I actually know some open-hardware printers which sell for 5K.
- sydd 7y ago
  you can get an Anycubic Photon under $500, its a decent resin LCD printer.
  - opencl 7y ago
    The patent mentioned in the article is specifically for continuous SLA printing (no pauses for lifting/peeling between layers), which the photon and other similarly-priced models don't do. I have one of the cheap SLA printers, and the lifting can occupy over half the printing time depending on layer height/resin type. The continuous printing machines seem to start in the several-thousand-dollar range.
    - hexa_storm 7y ago
      the rotating reflective polygon patent is this one https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/29/68/46/da50635a85b615/US9079355.pdf https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/29/68/46/da50635... I think it is even more relevant but somehow it did not get posted.

patrickread 7y ago

Came here for the 3D printing of unicorn animals using lasers. Disappointing.

DonHopkins 7y ago
I prefer highly significant Bladerunneresque origami unicorns. https://br-insight.com/library/significance-of-the-unicorn/ https://br-insight.com/library/significance-of-the-unicorn/

gene-h 7y ago

I don't think it's that disruptive. One thing that the 2009 roadmap for additive manufacturing has emphasized is the need to move from point to line and area deposition[0]. This still scans a point like stereolithography has done since the beginning. We now have stereolithography machines capable of area deposition by using a DMD projector[1], often called DLP, that are approaching manufacturing products at high volume[2]. Some DLP stereolithography machines now have resolution on the order of 10 micrometers over a 160 mm by 50 mm area[2]. We're having to develop new ways to describe 3d geometry just so that we can take advantage of this resolution. So there is potential here for both fast and incredibly high resolution using DLP stereolithography. We've also seen the development that the 2009 additive manufacturing roadmap couldn't anticipate: volumetric deposition[3]. In addition, there are some potential disadvantages to prism scanning. Prism scanning can only do raster scans, we can't define the outline of a part in vector mode. Although I will admit that this may not be as much of a problem if we can control the brightness of our laser. In addition, in stereolithography it is advantageous to carry out raster scans perpendicular to each other, this is because the photopolymer contracts as it cures and scanning in both directions helps make this contraction uniform. [0]https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4716/c69f0b90a158589e54248a524a57ad78f4a3.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4716/c69f0b90a158589e54248a... [1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpH1zhUQY0c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpH1zhUQY0c [2]https://www.carbon3d.com/case-studies/adidas/ https://www.carbon3d.com/case-studies/adidas/ [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xHZvUP1Ls https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31xHZvUP1Ls

jacobolus 7y ago
#3 is pretty neat. Paper: https://www.epfl.ch/labs/lapd/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ms3790.pdf https://www.epfl.ch/labs/lapd/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/ms3... * * * Inre #1–2, Is anyone selling custom parts produced on that Carbon3D printer? That is, someone that ingests a shapefile (or whatever) and mails back a part printed on one of these machines?
hexa_storm 7y ago
DLP projection has a lot of advantages, the area projection is one of those. For large area beamers are moved; see moving light technology by prodways https://youtu.be/1AQJaqdrzzE https://youtu.be/1AQJaqdrzzE . There is no longer a real difference then. Lasers can go below 200 nm using dual photon (nanoscribe) or sted lithography.

bfrog 7y ago

Are there things beyond modeling where 3d printing is useful? The parts I've seen using dlp or sla never seem structurally useful to me. Sintered metal printing seems like although it may be less precise might be more useful structurally?

joshvm 7y ago
I've used nylon SLS for lab and commercial optical work. It's strong and you can tap it. It's much cleaner than dealing with resin prints. The quality is fine if you're making simple polygonal shapes and unless you need really fine detail it's enough. You can also do things easily with SLS which are really annoying to do with printer technologies that need removable supports, like cavities and overhangs.
- hexa_storm 7y ago
  you can also combine it with optical coherence tomography and use it for detecting eye diseases or laser surgery...
kriro 7y ago
Small scale stuff you want on premise is a decent use case. The prime example being medical/dental. Imagine a patient with a crushed jarbone. You can model and print a custom prosthesis on premise and print it in maybe 16h-38h. Compare that to sending the job to some lab, custom molds being created and waiting for the item to be delivered (while the patient is waiting). I know it's used quite a bit for custom tooling as well. Think special tools needed on an assembly line in automotive where pausing the assembly is very expensive or lead times for some custom tool to grab a wheel while working on it and whatnot are expensive. I think one of the biggest success stories is cutsom made hearing aids. Return rate a lot lower, easier to iterate and produce the perfect fit etc. Another example (maybe a bit more high end) is turning some item that is made out of many parts into a single item both for cost saving and other reasons. Iirc NASA uses ultrasonic welding (which is 3d printing of sorts) for this.
- bfrog 7y ago

ragebol 7y ago

Interesting, I've used something quite similar to the scanning-through-prism technology a few years ago, though with an 8-sided polygon for the application of exposing PCB masks. We were looking at 3D printing too IIRC. To get to the desired ~80x80cm PCB size and the accuracy needed, we had to achieve super high throughput and super low timing jitter on the UV-LEDs. Very interesting technology, unfortunately we took too long to get a smaller scale proto working and funding was cut right after we delivered that proto :-(. Calibrating the whole machine from scratch was clever too. Learned a lot there.

hexa_storm 7y ago
do you have a link?
- ragebol 7y ago
  The domain name has lapsed, but some articles remain: - https://www.alexandergroenewege.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/eindhovens-dagblad-2015-09-09.pdf https://www.alexandergroenewege.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/0... - https://www.linkmagazine.nl/maskerloze-pcb-machine-ldi-systems-gaat-proefdraaien/ https://www.linkmagazine.nl/maskerloze-pcb-machine-ldi-syste... In Dutch unfortunately. Looking at OP's article, it could very well be that we had licensed some of the tech of the Rik Starmans mentioned int he article.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]