4 ms·

Your argument effectively says: 'people are too stupid to be trusted with their freedom'. I get that this is an unpopular opinion, but bad things will happen i

Your argument effectively says: 'people are too stupid to be trusted with their freedom'. I get that this is an unpopular opinion, but bad things will happen if people are to be free.

afiori 7y ago
It is an unpopular opinion because claiming this: > but bad things will happen if people are to be free. is how most genocide got started.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  Heh, is that supposed to shut this conversation down? Genocides get started, because people can express themselves freely? Really?
  - afiori 7y ago
    No, genocide happened because people believed that another group would do terrible things if given the opportunity. Not freedom, but the belief that others will misuse their freedom.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
      Who are those hypothetical people that would do those horrible things given the opportunity. I hate hypotheticals.
      - afiori 7y ago
        Hitler believed Jews were a cancer[1] to Germany and had to be stopped. [1] AFAIK Hitler had a very living image of Germany as a singular ideological organical being and truly though of those he tried to eliminate as a dangerous infection.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        Ahh, yes. US is the spitting image of a country ravaged by WW1, with its government in shambles and crushing reparations. The similarities just impossible to ignore.
        afiori 7y ago
        No, they are not. The reasons behind the horrors of nazi germany where probably unique in many way. but not all genocides need to look the same. It is significantly silly to say it cannot happen just because it cannot happen in the same way. That said I believe a new genocide is impossible in the US in the coming year. This won't stop a violent escalation fo the rhetoric.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        Great. We agree. If you believe it is impossible, why do you appear to be arguing for subverting US foundations?
        afiori 7y ago
        I am not, I am arguing that the rhetoric "if we do not restrain their freedom bad things will happen" is dangerous and with dangerous precedents.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        I agree. It is dangerous, but I also happen to think that attempting add asterisks to individual freedom runs counter to the spirit of this country. More than that, I believe that few dead bodies matter less than individual freedoms, as sad as those deaths are. We come at this argument from different perspectives.
        tracyshaun 7y ago
        #godwinslaw
MrLeap 7y ago
Back in the 90's I think ours was the popular opinion. It's gross to see it fade so fast. I get companies taking a stand for who they accept as a customer. It makes me feel really icky when I see suggestions that the first amendment get even more asterisks next to it.
- guamcable 7y ago
  I am almost 40 and have had the same reaction. What is ironic is that the people on the internet with the elitist attitudes are extremely ignorant to anything that appears to be happening politically and only comment on message boards that have extreme censorship of ideas. Their opinions appear to be straight from CNN, as if they just read the headlines. Nobody in any of the comments about this topic have even addressed any of the political issues other than the common left-wing view that guns should be taken away. Everybody believes the attackers are "white supremacists", despite the manifestos of these people suggesting otherwise. The attackers don't have any negative feelings towards other races, they simply prefer their own race. This is common amongst all races and has nothing to do with white supremacy. The supposed reason they are acting out is due to the massive decline in the white population. This isn't even talked about on the forums the elitist, anti-free speech people participate in. Not wanting your race to disappear is not racism. That is just stupid. I am not sure if these attackers really even are doing anything because of these issues. It is more likely that their lives are not going well and they have adopted a cause that can help to explain why their lives are not going well. The solution to this isn't to try to prevent disenfranchised people being radicalised, because that is impossible. These people just adopt a cause. Their mindset is already in place, they just find a reason somewhere at the current time and in the current political environment for their actions. This part isn't important. The important part is why their lives aren't going so well. That has to change if people want to stop these events. The idea that Trump or 8chan or 4chan has anything to do with these events is dumb. Trump wasn't the start of all of this. There was Brexit before that, for example. The turmoil that is starting to occur has nothing to do with websites or individuals, it has to do with the general state of modern life. The terrible jobs, the lack of feeling like a human, the strange aspects of modern life that are not compatible with human nature. The question of why the white race is so rapidly declining also has to be answered.
rimliu 7y ago
But smart enough to carry guns, eh?
- A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
  Huh? The conversation is currently about speech, not guns.

Your argument effectively says: 'people are too stupid to be trusted with their freedom'. I get that this is an unpopular opinion, but bad things will happen if people are to be free.

afiori 7y ago

It is an unpopular opinion because claiming this: > but bad things will happen if people are to be free. is how most genocide got started.

A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
Heh, is that supposed to shut this conversation down? Genocides get started, because people can express themselves freely? Really?
- afiori 7y ago
  No, genocide happened because people believed that another group would do terrible things if given the opportunity. Not freedom, but the belief that others will misuse their freedom.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
    Who are those hypothetical people that would do those horrible things given the opportunity. I hate hypotheticals.
    - afiori 7y ago
      Hitler believed Jews were a cancer[1] to Germany and had to be stopped. [1] AFAIK Hitler had a very living image of Germany as a singular ideological organical being and truly though of those he tried to eliminate as a dangerous infection.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        Ahh, yes. US is the spitting image of a country ravaged by WW1, with its government in shambles and crushing reparations. The similarities just impossible to ignore.
        afiori 7y ago
        No, they are not. The reasons behind the horrors of nazi germany where probably unique in many way. but not all genocides need to look the same. It is significantly silly to say it cannot happen just because it cannot happen in the same way. That said I believe a new genocide is impossible in the US in the coming year. This won't stop a violent escalation fo the rhetoric.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        Great. We agree. If you believe it is impossible, why do you appear to be arguing for subverting US foundations?
        afiori 7y ago
        I am not, I am arguing that the rhetoric "if we do not restrain their freedom bad things will happen" is dangerous and with dangerous precedents.
        A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
        I agree. It is dangerous, but I also happen to think that attempting add asterisks to individual freedom runs counter to the spirit of this country. More than that, I believe that few dead bodies matter less than individual freedoms, as sad as those deaths are. We come at this argument from different perspectives.
      - tracyshaun 7y ago
        #godwinslaw

MrLeap 7y ago

Back in the 90's I think ours was the popular opinion. It's gross to see it fade so fast. I get companies taking a stand for who they accept as a customer. It makes me feel really icky when I see suggestions that the first amendment get even more asterisks next to it.

guamcable 7y ago
I am almost 40 and have had the same reaction. What is ironic is that the people on the internet with the elitist attitudes are extremely ignorant to anything that appears to be happening politically and only comment on message boards that have extreme censorship of ideas. Their opinions appear to be straight from CNN, as if they just read the headlines. Nobody in any of the comments about this topic have even addressed any of the political issues other than the common left-wing view that guns should be taken away. Everybody believes the attackers are "white supremacists", despite the manifestos of these people suggesting otherwise. The attackers don't have any negative feelings towards other races, they simply prefer their own race. This is common amongst all races and has nothing to do with white supremacy. The supposed reason they are acting out is due to the massive decline in the white population. This isn't even talked about on the forums the elitist, anti-free speech people participate in. Not wanting your race to disappear is not racism. That is just stupid. I am not sure if these attackers really even are doing anything because of these issues. It is more likely that their lives are not going well and they have adopted a cause that can help to explain why their lives are not going well. The solution to this isn't to try to prevent disenfranchised people being radicalised, because that is impossible. These people just adopt a cause. Their mindset is already in place, they just find a reason somewhere at the current time and in the current political environment for their actions. This part isn't important. The important part is why their lives aren't going so well. That has to change if people want to stop these events. The idea that Trump or 8chan or 4chan has anything to do with these events is dumb. Trump wasn't the start of all of this. There was Brexit before that, for example. The turmoil that is starting to occur has nothing to do with websites or individuals, it has to do with the general state of modern life. The terrible jobs, the lack of feeling like a human, the strange aspects of modern life that are not compatible with human nature. The question of why the white race is so rapidly declining also has to be answered.

rimliu 7y ago

But smart enough to carry guns, eh?

A4ET8a8uTh0 7y ago
Huh? The conversation is currently about speech, not guns.