4 ms·

When I was much younger, I remember being filled with wonder when I learned about the Skokie case[1], where the ACLU went to court to protect the rights of Nazi

by Meekro 7y ago

When I was much younger, I remember being filled with wonder when I learned about the Skokie case[1], where the ACLU went to court to protect the rights of Nazis to hold a rally in a mostly-Jewish town. "Wait, they faced down criticism from every direction, and took a massive loss in donations, to stand up for the fundamental rights of people they despise? Is this what liberals do? I want to be a liberal!" Sadly, if that happened today they'd probably say something about not tolerating intolerance and side with the government to shut them down. [1] https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-speech-skokie https://www.aclu.org/other/aclu-history-taking-stand-free-sp...

sagichmal 7y ago
Not sadly, but hopefully! Free speech absolutism is a maladaptive local optima. Free speech isn’t an end in itself, it’s a means, a tool, that every society must use to create just and ethical outcomes.
- DuskStar 7y ago
  And the reason we had free speech absolutism was that no one should be able to dictate what the proper "just and ethical outcomes" should be. Is today's morality the end of all things? By locking down speech, what developments will we prevent?
  - sagichmal 7y ago
    > No one should be able to dictate what the proper "just and ethical outcomes" should be Not only is every human _able_ to dictate what "just and ethical outcomes" are, we're _obliged_ to, if we intend to form civil society. > Is today's morality the end of all things? No, of course not. Everyone is obliged to continuously engage in the conversation, to push the course of all society away from suffering and toward justice.
    - DuskStar 7y ago
      > No, of course not. Everyone is obliged to continuously engage in the conversation, to push the course of all society away from suffering and toward justice. Well how the fuck are you supposed to be able to do this if all wrongthink is banned? Because things like "women are equal to men", "race doesn't matter", "slavery is wrong", etc were most certainly wrongthink to begin with.
      - spookthesunset 7y ago
        > Because things like "women are equal to men", "race doesn't matter", "slavery is wrong", etc were most certainly wrongthink to begin with. Pretty big difference between your examples and literal nazis posting hate on 8chan.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        Oh, of course - but the point is that you can't always tell ahead of time, and giving the people in power the ability to determine such just ensures that the people in power will never change.
      - sagichmal 7y ago
        I’m going to turn it around on you: how can we have a just society if women legitimately fear for their safety when they go to certain places? We’re not obliged to suffer white nationalists carrying tiki torches down the national mall chanting “Blood and thunder” and making the world unambiguously worse because we need to know their position exists. Sunlight is not always the best disinfectant.
        DuskStar 7y ago
        > how can we have a just society if women legitimately fear for their safety when they go to certain places? This is a really hard question, partly because those women are generally wrong - men are much more likely to be mugged/assaulted/killed than women in every US location I've seen statistics for. > We’re not obliged to suffer white nationalists carrying tiki torches down the national mall chanting “Blood and thunder” and making the world unambiguously worse because we need to know their position exists. Should we also not be obliged to suffer black supremacists doing the same? Or, more recently, gay rights advocates? How is that not exactly analogous to pride parades? Yes, we now agree with (and approve of) some values and not others. But locking those values in place 20 years ago would have been clearly wrong (no gay marriage, etc), so why do we assume that doing the same today would have been better? How can we differentiate between 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' while still allowing the next gay rights movement to take place?
- LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
  Ethical outcomes, they justify the means. Like redistributing the land, justifys the holdomor. Future generations will praise what we have done, and forget about those we had to sacrifice, because they held us back.
DuskStar 7y ago
The ACLU had some internal memos released last year basically saying "if you want to carry weapons, we won't represent you" and "if your speech 'harms' marginalized communities, have fun". [0] They're certainly not the universal defenders of civil liberties they used to be. 0: https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/ https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/
yyyk 7y ago
That case was a bad mistake, and it's telling that the ACLU changed its ways. Hopefully, one day the ACLU will apologize to the Jewish community for its role there.

by Meekro 7y ago

sagichmal 7y ago

Not sadly, but hopefully! Free speech absolutism is a maladaptive local optima. Free speech isn’t an end in itself, it’s a means, a tool, that every society must use to create just and ethical outcomes.

DuskStar 7y ago
And the reason we had free speech absolutism was that no one should be able to dictate what the proper "just and ethical outcomes" should be. Is today's morality the end of all things? By locking down speech, what developments will we prevent?
- sagichmal 7y ago
  > No one should be able to dictate what the proper "just and ethical outcomes" should be Not only is every human _able_ to dictate what "just and ethical outcomes" are, we're _obliged_ to, if we intend to form civil society. > Is today's morality the end of all things? No, of course not. Everyone is obliged to continuously engage in the conversation, to push the course of all society away from suffering and toward justice.
  - DuskStar 7y ago
    > No, of course not. Everyone is obliged to continuously engage in the conversation, to push the course of all society away from suffering and toward justice. Well how the fuck are you supposed to be able to do this if all wrongthink is banned? Because things like "women are equal to men", "race doesn't matter", "slavery is wrong", etc were most certainly wrongthink to begin with.
    - spookthesunset 7y ago
      > Because things like "women are equal to men", "race doesn't matter", "slavery is wrong", etc were most certainly wrongthink to begin with. Pretty big difference between your examples and literal nazis posting hate on 8chan.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        Oh, of course - but the point is that you can't always tell ahead of time, and giving the people in power the ability to determine such just ensures that the people in power will never change.
    - sagichmal 7y ago
      I’m going to turn it around on you: how can we have a just society if women legitimately fear for their safety when they go to certain places? We’re not obliged to suffer white nationalists carrying tiki torches down the national mall chanting “Blood and thunder” and making the world unambiguously worse because we need to know their position exists. Sunlight is not always the best disinfectant.
      - DuskStar 7y ago
        > how can we have a just society if women legitimately fear for their safety when they go to certain places? This is a really hard question, partly because those women are generally wrong - men are much more likely to be mugged/assaulted/killed than women in every US location I've seen statistics for. > We’re not obliged to suffer white nationalists carrying tiki torches down the national mall chanting “Blood and thunder” and making the world unambiguously worse because we need to know their position exists. Should we also not be obliged to suffer black supremacists doing the same? Or, more recently, gay rights advocates? How is that not exactly analogous to pride parades? Yes, we now agree with (and approve of) some values and not others. But locking those values in place 20 years ago would have been clearly wrong (no gay marriage, etc), so why do we assume that doing the same today would have been better? How can we differentiate between 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable' while still allowing the next gay rights movement to take place?
LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
Ethical outcomes, they justify the means. Like redistributing the land, justifys the holdomor. Future generations will praise what we have done, and forget about those we had to sacrifice, because they held us back.

DuskStar 7y ago

The ACLU had some internal memos released last year basically saying "if you want to carry weapons, we won't represent you" and "if your speech 'harms' marginalized communities, have fun". [0] They're certainly not the universal defenders of civil liberties they used to be. 0: https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/ https://reason.com/2018/06/21/aclu-leaked-memo-free-speech/

yyyk 7y ago

That case was a bad mistake, and it's telling that the ACLU changed its ways. Hopefully, one day the ACLU will apologize to the Jewish community for its role there.