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>Out of those claims the "language X is more precise/able to express more nuance than Y" is probably the reddest flag of them all. This may be nonsense as an o

>Out of those claims the "language X is more precise/able to express more nuance than Y" is probably the reddest flag of them all. This may be nonsense as an overall comparison between languages but this is definitely the case for specific concepts. Here is a paper where the reactions of 30 Dutch people and 30 Jahai tribesman to a set of odors were compared: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.2017.0139 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/full/10.1098/rstb.201... First two paragraphs of the conclusion: Olfactory abstraction varies across cultures: while Dutch participants confirmed the often-touted claim that ‘olfactory abstraction is impossible’ [19] by providing mostly concrete language in response to odours, Jahai speakers overwhelmingly described odours with dedicated, abstract language. In addition, their responses were faster and shorter, providing converging evidence that the Jahai are communicatively adept in talking about odours. Even for the monomolecular odours used in this study, which do not have a single object entity associated with them, Dutch participants predominantly tried to identify a source (e.g. flowers), or situation (e.g. house that isn't aired), corresponding to that aroma. Their grappling to identify concrete sources was in sharp contrast to the fluent abstract Jahai responses. Previous studies have shown that Standard Average Europeans struggle to identify odours [5,13–16], as also illustrated by the Dutch here. The greater ease of linguistic expression demonstrated by the Jahai is not unique, however. It appears that hunter-gatherer communities in particular find odours easier to talk about [23]. It's not really an objectionable concept. It's essentially the same as how any kind of discipline with a reasonable amount of information to learn comes up with their own terms. It makes it easier to navigate relevant information.

simias 7y ago
This paper shows that Jahai are capable of "olfactory abstraction" but I don't see how that says anything about the respective languages. I mean the last sentence: >The greater ease of linguistic expression demonstrated by the Jahai is not unique, however. It appears that hunter-gatherer communities in particular find odours easier to talk about. If that's true that probably means that they have a greater need to express these concepts and as such have become better at it and developed a specific jargon. Maybe if they tried with tulips or windmills they'd find that the Dutch are much better able to describe them succinctly. Besides the paper says that the Dutch subjects are urban dwellers while the "All Jahai still pursue traditional foraging, although they reside in a resettlement village much of the time, and so are exposed to modernity". Attributing the results solely to linguistic differences would be rather bold (and the paper doesn't in fact do that as far as I can tell> So if you're saying "culture which have a lot of exposition to X and often need to precisely talk about X develop linguistic tools to do it efficiently" then yeah, that seems fairly uncontroversial. Just look at any HN technical discussion about "bugs", "segfaults", "DDOS" or "transpilers". I still don't think it makes a good case for comparing entire languages as a whole.
- jcranberry 7y ago
  >I still don't think it makes a good case for comparing entire languages as a whole. I wasn't making such a case. I was pointing out that in limited contexts, different languages may have more or less effective means for accurately describing things within that context. Attempting to place a valuation on languages and comparing them wholesale is stupid, but that doesn't imply that a language can't be lacking in vocabulary in some space compared to another. That also doesn't mean that there is something fundamentally keeping it from developing vocabulary for such spaces. Which I'm sure they do in niche spaces, such as the academy.

simias 7y ago

This paper shows that Jahai are capable of "olfactory abstraction" but I don't see how that says anything about the respective languages. I mean the last sentence: >The greater ease of linguistic expression demonstrated by the Jahai is not unique, however. It appears that hunter-gatherer communities in particular find odours easier to talk about. If that's true that probably means that they have a greater need to express these concepts and as such have become better at it and developed a specific jargon. Maybe if they tried with tulips or windmills they'd find that the Dutch are much better able to describe them succinctly. Besides the paper says that the Dutch subjects are urban dwellers while the "All Jahai still pursue traditional foraging, although they reside in a resettlement village much of the time, and so are exposed to modernity". Attributing the results solely to linguistic differences would be rather bold (and the paper doesn't in fact do that as far as I can tell> So if you're saying "culture which have a lot of exposition to X and often need to precisely talk about X develop linguistic tools to do it efficiently" then yeah, that seems fairly uncontroversial. Just look at any HN technical discussion about "bugs", "segfaults", "DDOS" or "transpilers". I still don't think it makes a good case for comparing entire languages as a whole.

jcranberry 7y ago
>I still don't think it makes a good case for comparing entire languages as a whole. I wasn't making such a case. I was pointing out that in limited contexts, different languages may have more or less effective means for accurately describing things within that context. Attempting to place a valuation on languages and comparing them wholesale is stupid, but that doesn't imply that a language can't be lacking in vocabulary in some space compared to another. That also doesn't mean that there is something fundamentally keeping it from developing vocabulary for such spaces. Which I'm sure they do in niche spaces, such as the academy.