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For me, after years producing software, I've set myself up to be able to say no. I disregard urgency when it exists for urgency's sake, coming out of business

For me, after years producing software, I've set myself up to be able to say no. I disregard urgency when it exists for urgency's sake, coming out of business despair or a gut feeling. I will gladly work for 2 - 3 months on hyper mode, giving away my mental and physical health for a feature that will actually provide business value and for which the business can make a good case for why it's needed yesterday. Working with multiple companies on executive and / or consulting levels, I feel like a lot of business rush is done because business 'needs it now' in the hope that it will improve the bottom line because it's easier to expect a miracle than it is to take a good look at your fundamentals. The businesses with the most solid foundation I find are the ones that rarely need to rely on speed and instead rely on quality and produced value... once in awhile, a feature idea comes up that can propel the company - especially in the face of competitors - and it needs to be done as fast so that the producer can get as much value out of it before the competition catches up. That's a good reason to expect speed. Today's society expects hyper growth, hyper speed, hyper scale, but that is because this is what is mostly advertised and we as humans have a tendency to expect the world to work as is advertised, when in reality, there are a lot of smaller companies that don't create anxiety filled working days for their employees.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>I will gladly work for 2 - 3 months on hyper mode, giving away my mental and physical health for a feature that will actually provide business value and for which the business can make a good case for why it's needed yesterday. I feel sorry for you. As some who's been around the block a few times, I will never, EVER, give away my mental or physical health for someone's business. My health is more important than their quarterly targets.
- OedipusRex 7y ago
  This culture of sacrificing everything for the bottom line is a cancer on our industry.
- mellosouls 7y ago
  Yeah, that sentence leapt out at me too. Bizarre life priorities, and undermines otherwise sensible remarks.
  - bluntfang 7y ago
    Happy to be a slave as long as it makes me feel good.
    - fromthestart 7y ago
      You're willingly choosing to work on an interesting problem that you otherwise would not have access to, and, let's be real, our compensation and autonomy as developers is far from that of servitude. Plus you can quit any time. Slavery here really hyperbolic. We're talking about hard work that is both interesting and rewarding.
      - bluntfang 7y ago
        >We're talking about hard work that is both interesting and rewarding. Your hard work is way more rewarding to your masters than to you, though.
        tictoc 7y ago
        We're all slaves man.
        bluntfang 7y ago
        Yeah I get the sarcasm, but I really don't understand people who accept capitalism and also accept that their hard work is worth more than what they receive in compensation. Like, shouldn't they be upset and trying to find a way to twist the system for their benefit, just like the people using them?
        tictoc 7y ago
- rb808 7y ago
  Sure you can say that now, but have you ever worked in a recession?
- saiya-jin 7y ago
  Yeah that's a junior mistake. In this case, a person can have a solid 20+ years of great career and still do this basic mistake. World is full of people rich and poor, smart and not so much, who end up regretting their life choices when getting old. I would say it differently though - do I have +-guaranteed massive return that over-compensates my extra effort and loss? If I get something meaningful, ie paid next 5 amazing vacations, can retire 1 year earlier, pay off massive part of mortgage or something on similar level, then I can at least consider it.
  - FussyZeus 7y ago
    Potentially unpopular opinion but I agree. If there's a definite payoff to burning hard on a given project, I'll do it. Trading a few months or weeks for a paid off home is hardly insane at all.
- vorpalhex 7y ago
  In defense of the parent, I can imagine a situation where I'm excited and truly bought into a product as improving peoples lives and am willing to expend the energy to dramatically improve that product in meaningful ways. I think this is something a lot of folks in our industry want, and that's not per se bad though it can lead to negative outcomes.
  - __MatrixMan__ 7y ago
    I had a project like this once. I really threw myself into it. I wasn't dying, but it did have a negative impact on my life in most other dimensions. Then some kind of politics held the project up (likely for years), and they had me work a different project, so I quit, 'cause it was the success of that particular project that had me coming to work (it was gonna prevent traffic accidents, and it was fun to work on). I have a healthier work/life balance now, but I don't care about what I'm working on. If they could get the wheels moving on that project again I'd switch back in a heartbeat. I'm gonna die either way. If I have to put in a bit more work in order for it all to have meant something more than pointless meetings and products that nobody wants, then that's work I'm willing to do.
    - ThalesX 7y ago
      One of the rare instances in which I threw myself into those sprints I was advocating for is working on the national emergency management system. I loved the project, I felt like my contribution to society was well worth the months spent sweating over it. Childless, young and healthy, it was a great experience and I still check the uptime from time to time a lot of years later. I've since left that institution precisely for what you mention, politics, and exactly like you I something think about working on that project again. I don't think any project I'll ever work on will be as satisfying from a societal perspective, as that one.
  - SomeOldThrow 7y ago
    This is giving money to the rich. Don’t put in any more time than you need to; no product is worth that.
- TuringNYC 7y ago
  I feel both sorry for the parent and also relate to it. I have several sprints a year that get me so excited about work, that I will head to work after kids’ bedtimes to code — all night — because I can’t stop thinking about some solution. Sometimes I’m so excited I wouldn’t be able to sleep so might as well work.
  - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
    Why do you do that for a company that would be throw you away if it made economic sense to do so? Why don't you find personal avenues in which to exert that creative energy for you, your family, or society?
    - really3452 7y ago
      You are making a lot of assumptions here. Not all companies are bad or will throw you away. Maybe they are friends or family with the owner? In that case, helping the company bleeds outside of just an economic decision.
      - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
        I didn't use the term "bad". I said it was based in economics. It's called a work/life balance. Work, and the related money are a means to being able to live in this society. And how we choose to use the money and power, is how we affect society. But running to work after everyone else "goes to sleep" doesn't appear as a healthy relationship. And I know of nobody who said when they got old, "I wish I spent more time at work".
        davinic 7y ago
        But you're making the assumption that "work/life balance" must happen at the daily level. I'm perfectly happy to work my ass off for a couple months and then take a month off. To me that's a far better balance than trying to fit it all within a day.
    - 7y ago
- ThalesX 7y ago
  > I feel sorry for you. I'm doing O.K., thank you for the concern. > As some who's been around the block a few times, I will never, EVER, give away my mental or physical health for someone's business. > My health is more important than their quarterly targets. I wholeheartedly agree, however I believe there are some situations where such a choice is not so bad. If you're young, have no obligations, believe in what you do and will end up a lot better after the sprint, I think it's not such a bad thing. The most important thing I believe is being able to take the time off after said sprint to recover and get things back to normal. It shouldn't be a normality in your life and you should be in total control of the situation. Also such sprints should be seriously spaced.
  - ChuckNorris89 7y ago
    >however I believe there are some situations where such a choice is not so bad. If you're young, have no obligations, believe in what you do and will end up a lot better after the sprint How will YOU end up better after the sprint if you're not working on your own product but on your company's? That will benefit your CEO and shareholders for sure but how does it benefit YOU exactly? Keep in mind, you have one health in your life and when it's gone it's gone for good whereas there'll be plenty of world-changing unicorns where you can work yourself to exhaustion if that's what you wish. Nobody has ever regretted on their deathbed not having worked more for someone else.
redleggedfrog 7y ago
ThalesX, your comment here is better than the linked article. Well said. Looking back over the years of software development I've been involved in (jeez, 27) and remembering the things that were developed with all haste, not one of them, not a single one, met with success. There were some that were developed quickly, usually to meet contractual deadlines, that were good and gave the customer what they needed, but even then, if they could have just waited one more month, I think they would have gotten something better and been more successful.
- ThalesX 7y ago
  Thank you for the kind words. If I may add this, I believe two forces are particularly strong when leading us to deliver rushed solutions. One is this expectancy of the market to ever grow, faster, stronger, harder. All. The. Time. The second is stakeholder focus on the short term and using estimates as deadlines to 3rd parties. These forces get translated by business people into the classic 9 women can give birth to a child in 1 month situation which we can actually deliver because most of them can actually get even more value from being able to sell maintenance. Hey, as long as lives don't get lost from shoddy implementations all is well; oh wait...
bg4 7y ago
> I will gladly work for 2 - 3 months on hyper mode, giving away my mental and physical health for a feature that will actually provide business value and for which the business can make a good case for why it's needed yesterday. I felt the same way until I caused permanent damage to my eyesight from stress. It isn't worth it.

ChuckNorris89 7y ago

>I will gladly work for 2 - 3 months on hyper mode, giving away my mental and physical health for a feature that will actually provide business value and for which the business can make a good case for why it's needed yesterday. I feel sorry for you. As some who's been around the block a few times, I will never, EVER, give away my mental or physical health for someone's business. My health is more important than their quarterly targets.

OedipusRex 7y ago
This culture of sacrificing everything for the bottom line is a cancer on our industry.
mellosouls 7y ago
Yeah, that sentence leapt out at me too. Bizarre life priorities, and undermines otherwise sensible remarks.
- bluntfang 7y ago
  Happy to be a slave as long as it makes me feel good.
  - fromthestart 7y ago
    You're willingly choosing to work on an interesting problem that you otherwise would not have access to, and, let's be real, our compensation and autonomy as developers is far from that of servitude. Plus you can quit any time. Slavery here really hyperbolic. We're talking about hard work that is both interesting and rewarding.
    - bluntfang 7y ago
      >We're talking about hard work that is both interesting and rewarding. Your hard work is way more rewarding to your masters than to you, though.
      - tictoc 7y ago
        We're all slaves man.
        bluntfang 7y ago
        Yeah I get the sarcasm, but I really don't understand people who accept capitalism and also accept that their hard work is worth more than what they receive in compensation. Like, shouldn't they be upset and trying to find a way to twist the system for their benefit, just like the people using them?
        tictoc 7y ago
rb808 7y ago
Sure you can say that now, but have you ever worked in a recession?
saiya-jin 7y ago
Yeah that's a junior mistake. In this case, a person can have a solid 20+ years of great career and still do this basic mistake. World is full of people rich and poor, smart and not so much, who end up regretting their life choices when getting old. I would say it differently though - do I have +-guaranteed massive return that over-compensates my extra effort and loss? If I get something meaningful, ie paid next 5 amazing vacations, can retire 1 year earlier, pay off massive part of mortgage or something on similar level, then I can at least consider it.
- FussyZeus 7y ago
  Potentially unpopular opinion but I agree. If there's a definite payoff to burning hard on a given project, I'll do it. Trading a few months or weeks for a paid off home is hardly insane at all.
vorpalhex 7y ago
In defense of the parent, I can imagine a situation where I'm excited and truly bought into a product as improving peoples lives and am willing to expend the energy to dramatically improve that product in meaningful ways. I think this is something a lot of folks in our industry want, and that's not per se bad though it can lead to negative outcomes.
- __MatrixMan__ 7y ago
  I had a project like this once. I really threw myself into it. I wasn't dying, but it did have a negative impact on my life in most other dimensions. Then some kind of politics held the project up (likely for years), and they had me work a different project, so I quit, 'cause it was the success of that particular project that had me coming to work (it was gonna prevent traffic accidents, and it was fun to work on). I have a healthier work/life balance now, but I don't care about what I'm working on. If they could get the wheels moving on that project again I'd switch back in a heartbeat. I'm gonna die either way. If I have to put in a bit more work in order for it all to have meant something more than pointless meetings and products that nobody wants, then that's work I'm willing to do.
  - ThalesX 7y ago
    One of the rare instances in which I threw myself into those sprints I was advocating for is working on the national emergency management system. I loved the project, I felt like my contribution to society was well worth the months spent sweating over it. Childless, young and healthy, it was a great experience and I still check the uptime from time to time a lot of years later. I've since left that institution precisely for what you mention, politics, and exactly like you I something think about working on that project again. I don't think any project I'll ever work on will be as satisfying from a societal perspective, as that one.
- SomeOldThrow 7y ago
  This is giving money to the rich. Don’t put in any more time than you need to; no product is worth that.
TuringNYC 7y ago
I feel both sorry for the parent and also relate to it. I have several sprints a year that get me so excited about work, that I will head to work after kids’ bedtimes to code — all night — because I can’t stop thinking about some solution. Sometimes I’m so excited I wouldn’t be able to sleep so might as well work.
- crankylinuxuser 7y ago
  Why do you do that for a company that would be throw you away if it made economic sense to do so? Why don't you find personal avenues in which to exert that creative energy for you, your family, or society?
  - really3452 7y ago
    You are making a lot of assumptions here. Not all companies are bad or will throw you away. Maybe they are friends or family with the owner? In that case, helping the company bleeds outside of just an economic decision.
    - crankylinuxuser 7y ago
      I didn't use the term "bad". I said it was based in economics. It's called a work/life balance. Work, and the related money are a means to being able to live in this society. And how we choose to use the money and power, is how we affect society. But running to work after everyone else "goes to sleep" doesn't appear as a healthy relationship. And I know of nobody who said when they got old, "I wish I spent more time at work".
      - davinic 7y ago
        But you're making the assumption that "work/life balance" must happen at the daily level. I'm perfectly happy to work my ass off for a couple months and then take a month off. To me that's a far better balance than trying to fit it all within a day.
  - 7y ago
ThalesX 7y ago
> I feel sorry for you. I'm doing O.K., thank you for the concern. > As some who's been around the block a few times, I will never, EVER, give away my mental or physical health for someone's business. > My health is more important than their quarterly targets. I wholeheartedly agree, however I believe there are some situations where such a choice is not so bad. If you're young, have no obligations, believe in what you do and will end up a lot better after the sprint, I think it's not such a bad thing. The most important thing I believe is being able to take the time off after said sprint to recover and get things back to normal. It shouldn't be a normality in your life and you should be in total control of the situation. Also such sprints should be seriously spaced.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  >however I believe there are some situations where such a choice is not so bad. If you're young, have no obligations, believe in what you do and will end up a lot better after the sprint How will YOU end up better after the sprint if you're not working on your own product but on your company's? That will benefit your CEO and shareholders for sure but how does it benefit YOU exactly? Keep in mind, you have one health in your life and when it's gone it's gone for good whereas there'll be plenty of world-changing unicorns where you can work yourself to exhaustion if that's what you wish. Nobody has ever regretted on their deathbed not having worked more for someone else.

redleggedfrog 7y ago

ThalesX, your comment here is better than the linked article. Well said. Looking back over the years of software development I've been involved in (jeez, 27) and remembering the things that were developed with all haste, not one of them, not a single one, met with success. There were some that were developed quickly, usually to meet contractual deadlines, that were good and gave the customer what they needed, but even then, if they could have just waited one more month, I think they would have gotten something better and been more successful.

ThalesX 7y ago
Thank you for the kind words. If I may add this, I believe two forces are particularly strong when leading us to deliver rushed solutions. One is this expectancy of the market to ever grow, faster, stronger, harder. All. The. Time. The second is stakeholder focus on the short term and using estimates as deadlines to 3rd parties. These forces get translated by business people into the classic 9 women can give birth to a child in 1 month situation which we can actually deliver because most of them can actually get even more value from being able to sell maintenance. Hey, as long as lives don't get lost from shoddy implementations all is well; oh wait...

bg4 7y ago

> I will gladly work for 2 - 3 months on hyper mode, giving away my mental and physical health for a feature that will actually provide business value and for which the business can make a good case for why it's needed yesterday. I felt the same way until I caused permanent damage to my eyesight from stress. It isn't worth it.