6 ms·

>When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderatio

>When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderation. How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? I feel like there is no absolute way to determine this. (I am being genuine in asking, I want to know what caused this change and how you see "free speech") All speech is good in my opinion. Some actions are bad. 8chan is supporting these actions, they've crossed the line.

devmunchies 7y ago
>8chan is supporting these actions You don’t know anything about the chans if you think 8chan collectively supports shootings.
- ViViDboarder 7y ago
  I don’t think they are referring to the people on it collectively. The site owners are implicitly supporting it by not moderating that type of content.
  - the8472 7y ago
    That seems like "if you're not with us you're against us" reasoning to me, it excludes the middle ground. Not banning something is not the same as endorsement.
    - bobfromhuddle 7y ago
      Yes. Reasonable people "exclude the middle ground" on support for domestic terrorism.
basementcat 7y ago
> All speech is good in my opinion. Some actions are bad. 8chan is supporting these actions, they've crossed the line. It looks like you've just made a determination of what you consider is bad speech.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- madamelic 7y ago
  Hah. I had to re-read your post + delete my original reply rejecting that. You got me. ;) I guess I am not as absolutionist as I thought.
  - basementcat 7y ago
    I was also more of a free speech absolutist when I was younger. Now I’m more on the fence and I struggle to objectively define what is "good" and "bad" speech.
    - ignoramous 7y ago
      A good definition for good I've come across is: "Anything which should be done, if done as it should, to the extent to which it should, in the place where it should, at the time when it should, and in view of the end for which it should, is called good." Kind of explains why the distinction between good and bad remains a grey area for some.
      - yesenadam 7y ago
        But the idea of 'good' is there smuggled in and already present inside that word 'should', it seems to me. p.s. Defining 'good' has been a problem for philosophy, see e.g. discussion of Moore's naturalistic fallacy[0]---a problem in trying to define good in terms of something else. Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape has been the most useful book for me on understanding ethics and what good means. [0] https://www.britannica.com/topic/naturalistic-fallacy https://www.britannica.com/topic/naturalistic-fallacy Not sure if that's the best link for the topic, but it's a start.
tim58 7y ago
> How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? Ultimately the courts determine which speech is "good" or "bad" by interpreting the law, but all property owners can determine what speech is permitted on their property (like what cloudflare is doing). I accept some limits on free speech. I think you shouldn't be able to start a panic without cause (yelling fire in a crowded theater). I think conspiracy is a crime. I think threats are a crime. I support the idea of copyright laws even if I think our current system is bad. From an internet freedom standpoint I think this signals we have an over dependence on cloudflare, not that we have a free speech problem.
- frabbit 7y ago
  I think you shouldn't be able to start a panic without cause[.] I think threats are a crime. Does that extend to US presidential candidates? The Democrats and Republicans both have quite a history of that. (And I am certain that if I bothered I could dig up hundreds of other examples) Free speech curtailment never works out well no matter the motivations. It is just another control used by the powerful to advance their own interests. Yes Cloudflare has the right as a private company to do what they want etc, etc. The argument is not narrowly about staying within legal bounds, but what _ought_ to be. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90289419 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=902894...
- madamelic 7y ago
  > I think this signals we have an over dependence on cloudflare, not that we have a free speech problem. I agree. I dislike the idea of large systems. Being able to throw their weight around is a symptom of the problem.
- umvi 7y ago
  > I think you shouldn't be able to start a panic without cause (yelling fire in a crowded theater) I would argue this isn't speech any more than saying a phrase to Alexa that causes an API to be called which then detonates a bomb is speech. I define speech as expression of ideas. Basically, say I maintain a blog. Should there be limits on which ideas I'm allowed to express on that blog? Should I be thrown in jail if I express a "bad" idea?
Erudire_Genius 7y ago
All speech falls into one of two categories: opinion or incitement. "I hate all (demographic)!" is an opinion. "I'd throw a party if all (demographic) died tomorrow." is STILL an opinion. "Someone should kill all these (demographic) idiots!" is no longer an opinion... It's incitement. (Like all of the times liberals have called for the murder of Republicans.) "I'm going to kill a bunch of these (demographic) this weekend!" is a phrase that should immediately precipitate the arrest of the poster, and does NOT quality as free speech because it's a direct threat of violence.
II2II 7y ago
I also feel that there is no absolute way to determine what is good speech and what is bad speech, yet I also realize that the distinction exists. Sometimes, there are clear markers. Supporting or promoting acts of violence is a poor fit for civil societies. The same can be said for other forms of harm. Yet I also view the use of speech to suppress speech as being a danger to civil societies since the intent is to discourage discourse. Other cases are more ambiguous, mostly because I would like to live in a fairy tale world where facts and reason will win the day. This is land where others can say things that I find reprehensible and vice versa so that we can eventually arrive upon the truth. The freedom of speech is necessary in this case because we all have our preconceived notions, some of which will ultimately prove to be wrong. If the preconceived notions of individuals and societies are not challenged, it will be nearly impossible to arrive upon the truth. The thing is that we don't live in that fairy tale world. The words of some people have more weight. That may be due to social status, connections, wealth, or other factors. Other people intentionally convey falsehoods in order to manipulate outcomes to reflect their motivations. People are also more likely to be swayed by emotion than reason, or to manipulate emotions to override reason. Where does that leave us? I really don't know. Perhaps the freedom of speech should be regarded as an aspiration rather than as an absolute.
slg 7y ago
>How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? Speech becomes bad when it infringes on the rights of another group or individual. Where that specific line is drawn does vary, but the underlying principle is the same and one that seemingly everyone agrees with. The US happens to be near the absolute extreme to where this line is drawn. Whether you think hate speech infringes on the rights of the targeted group is up for debate. People don't have an inherent right to not be offended (which is why I am against the few western countries that still have blasphemy laws). However, hate speech on sites like 8chan does often lead to speech that incites violence. There can be no debate that people have a right to safety. Speech that incites violence infringes on that right.
- AllegedAlec 7y ago
  > However, hate speech on sites like 8chan does often lead to speech that incites violence. Citation needed.
kelnos 7y ago
You're correct that there's no absolute way to determine what speech is good and bad. We can only muddle through, making value judgments. Some will be right, and some will be wrong, and hopefully we'll learn from the times we screw up. I'd rather people have the courage to take a moral/ethical stance than to just not care about anything and ignore the negative impacts technology can have on society. If Cloudflare is wrong in this instance, or in any future instance, hopefully there will be enough backlash that they'll learn and walk it back. If they fail at learning, then we have to resort to government regulation, and hope that our governments are up to the task of doing the right thing. At the end of the day, it's just people making decisions, all the way from the top, down to the bottom. We're all flawed and do the wrong thing sometimes, but my (perhaps naive) hope is that we're slowly converging on more right than wrong.

devmunchies 7y ago

>8chan is supporting these actions You don’t know anything about the chans if you think 8chan collectively supports shootings.

ViViDboarder 7y ago
I don’t think they are referring to the people on it collectively. The site owners are implicitly supporting it by not moderating that type of content.
- the8472 7y ago
  That seems like "if you're not with us you're against us" reasoning to me, it excludes the middle ground. Not banning something is not the same as endorsement.
  - bobfromhuddle 7y ago
    Yes. Reasonable people "exclude the middle ground" on support for domestic terrorism.

basementcat 7y ago

> All speech is good in my opinion. Some actions are bad. 8chan is supporting these actions, they've crossed the line. It looks like you've just made a determination of what you consider is bad speech.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
madamelic 7y ago
Hah. I had to re-read your post + delete my original reply rejecting that. You got me. ;) I guess I am not as absolutionist as I thought.
- basementcat 7y ago
  I was also more of a free speech absolutist when I was younger. Now I’m more on the fence and I struggle to objectively define what is "good" and "bad" speech.
  - ignoramous 7y ago
    A good definition for good I've come across is: "Anything which should be done, if done as it should, to the extent to which it should, in the place where it should, at the time when it should, and in view of the end for which it should, is called good." Kind of explains why the distinction between good and bad remains a grey area for some.
    - yesenadam 7y ago
      But the idea of 'good' is there smuggled in and already present inside that word 'should', it seems to me. p.s. Defining 'good' has been a problem for philosophy, see e.g. discussion of Moore's naturalistic fallacy[0]---a problem in trying to define good in terms of something else. Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape has been the most useful book for me on understanding ethics and what good means. [0] https://www.britannica.com/topic/naturalistic-fallacy https://www.britannica.com/topic/naturalistic-fallacy Not sure if that's the best link for the topic, but it's a start.

tim58 7y ago

> How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? Ultimately the courts determine which speech is "good" or "bad" by interpreting the law, but all property owners can determine what speech is permitted on their property (like what cloudflare is doing). I accept some limits on free speech. I think you shouldn't be able to start a panic without cause (yelling fire in a crowded theater). I think conspiracy is a crime. I think threats are a crime. I support the idea of copyright laws even if I think our current system is bad. From an internet freedom standpoint I think this signals we have an over dependence on cloudflare, not that we have a free speech problem.

frabbit 7y ago
I think you shouldn't be able to start a panic without cause[.] I think threats are a crime. Does that extend to US presidential candidates? The Democrats and Republicans both have quite a history of that. (And I am certain that if I bothered I could dig up hundreds of other examples) Free speech curtailment never works out well no matter the motivations. It is just another control used by the powerful to advance their own interests. Yes Cloudflare has the right as a private company to do what they want etc, etc. The argument is not narrowly about staying within legal bounds, but what _ought_ to be. https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90289419 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=902894...
madamelic 7y ago
> I think this signals we have an over dependence on cloudflare, not that we have a free speech problem. I agree. I dislike the idea of large systems. Being able to throw their weight around is a symptom of the problem.
umvi 7y ago
> I think you shouldn't be able to start a panic without cause (yelling fire in a crowded theater) I would argue this isn't speech any more than saying a phrase to Alexa that causes an API to be called which then detonates a bomb is speech. I define speech as expression of ideas. Basically, say I maintain a blog. Should there be limits on which ideas I'm allowed to express on that blog? Should I be thrown in jail if I express a "bad" idea?

Erudire_Genius 7y ago

All speech falls into one of two categories: opinion or incitement. "I hate all (demographic)!" is an opinion. "I'd throw a party if all (demographic) died tomorrow." is STILL an opinion. "Someone should kill all these (demographic) idiots!" is no longer an opinion... It's incitement. (Like all of the times liberals have called for the murder of Republicans.) "I'm going to kill a bunch of these (demographic) this weekend!" is a phrase that should immediately precipitate the arrest of the poster, and does NOT quality as free speech because it's a direct threat of violence.

II2II 7y ago

I also feel that there is no absolute way to determine what is good speech and what is bad speech, yet I also realize that the distinction exists. Sometimes, there are clear markers. Supporting or promoting acts of violence is a poor fit for civil societies. The same can be said for other forms of harm. Yet I also view the use of speech to suppress speech as being a danger to civil societies since the intent is to discourage discourse. Other cases are more ambiguous, mostly because I would like to live in a fairy tale world where facts and reason will win the day. This is land where others can say things that I find reprehensible and vice versa so that we can eventually arrive upon the truth. The freedom of speech is necessary in this case because we all have our preconceived notions, some of which will ultimately prove to be wrong. If the preconceived notions of individuals and societies are not challenged, it will be nearly impossible to arrive upon the truth. The thing is that we don't live in that fairy tale world. The words of some people have more weight. That may be due to social status, connections, wealth, or other factors. Other people intentionally convey falsehoods in order to manipulate outcomes to reflect their motivations. People are also more likely to be swayed by emotion than reason, or to manipulate emotions to override reason. Where does that leave us? I really don't know. Perhaps the freedom of speech should be regarded as an aspiration rather than as an absolute.

slg 7y ago

>How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? Speech becomes bad when it infringes on the rights of another group or individual. Where that specific line is drawn does vary, but the underlying principle is the same and one that seemingly everyone agrees with. The US happens to be near the absolute extreme to where this line is drawn. Whether you think hate speech infringes on the rights of the targeted group is up for debate. People don't have an inherent right to not be offended (which is why I am against the few western countries that still have blasphemy laws). However, hate speech on sites like 8chan does often lead to speech that incites violence. There can be no debate that people have a right to safety. Speech that incites violence infringes on that right.

AllegedAlec 7y ago
> However, hate speech on sites like 8chan does often lead to speech that incites violence. Citation needed.

kelnos 7y ago

You're correct that there's no absolute way to determine what speech is good and bad. We can only muddle through, making value judgments. Some will be right, and some will be wrong, and hopefully we'll learn from the times we screw up. I'd rather people have the courage to take a moral/ethical stance than to just not care about anything and ignore the negative impacts technology can have on society. If Cloudflare is wrong in this instance, or in any future instance, hopefully there will be enough backlash that they'll learn and walk it back. If they fail at learning, then we have to resort to government regulation, and hope that our governments are up to the task of doing the right thing. At the end of the day, it's just people making decisions, all the way from the top, down to the bottom. We're all flawed and do the wrong thing sometimes, but my (perhaps naive) hope is that we're slowly converging on more right than wrong.