4 ms·

Ask HN: Feeling lost and defeated. Need career advice.

12 points by lostsoul 16y ago

Background: I graduated last May, and started working for a BigCo. I've only been there 6 months, and I've been less than impressed with my experience so far. At the BigCo, I'm in a 2-year program that consists of 4 six-month cycles where I'm placed in different divisions of the company. For my first one, I'm doing development, but my background is in marketing and design. Here are my questions: - For the first six-month cycle, I'm unable to get any work done. I just don't enjoy coding, and there's a real possibility that I won't finish my project. How should I approach this? I've got about a month left, and I think I can get about 50-60% of it done. In college, not finishing isn't that big of deal since you get do-overs, but how bad is it in real life? And what can I do if I don't finish? How should I approach this with my manager? Should I be worried about getting let go before the 2nd cycle starts? - Is it too early to switch jobs? I've interned at smaller companies, and my experience so far has shown me I'm not meant for a big company. But how bad does it look if I switch after only 6 months? If you're a startup founder, would you question someone's loyalty if they switch jobs after only 6 months? - How do I approach smaller companies if I want to work in business / product / design / marketing related roles? Most job positions I see say they require 2-3 years of experience. I did stuff besides my classes in college - fundraisers (raised $3500+), conferences (400+ people) etc. and I know I can get shit done. Even if I stay at BigCo, I doubt I'll have any real experiences that can apply to smaller companies. Thanks! [I contribute to HN using another username, using a throwaway account because some of my colleagues could be regular readers]

elliottcarlson 16y ago
If you are not able to finish your project on time, you need to tell your manager as soon as possible. You may not have the experience to get it done, and that is fine in my opinion, but if there are deadlines, your manager needs to know sooner than later for damage control. As you said, there are possible do-overs when in college, but you need to do what you can to make a project succeed, even if that means admitting failure - it's a life lesson, failure should be acceptable, just make sure that your own failure doesn't affect others. You are almost at the end of your coding stint cycle - is the next six-month cycle more along your lines of what you want to do? If not, then I would look for something else. You have a goal of what you want to accomplish, and working on something that isn't even your field does not make sense for your future. I'm not a startup founder, but I do at times question when people have tons of short stint jobs - but if it's only one, then no big deal - a history of short stints here and there can raise concern, but even then it won't be an ultimate deciding factor when I choose to hire someone. Make sure your resume reflects your additional activities while in college - they may not be as necessary on there when you have more of a job history, but when you are first starting your resume, you want your potential employer to know what you are capable of - and this will get you callbacks where you can go in to more detail. Good luck!
- lostsoul 16y ago
  Thanks for the advice Elliot. Throughout the process, I've been open about my technical skills with my manager, but he keeps saying he has full confidence I can get it done; without any real advice. Luckily, its more of an independent internal project that replaces a process that's more manual right now, so it doesn't affect anything else. Yes, the next cycle is more related to what I do, but I don't want to get a reputation as someone who can't get stuff done; it's just that I feel 6 months is not enough time to learn a completely new language, especially when it took 3 months just to figure out the project requirements.
  - elliottcarlson 16y ago
    It's not necessarily your fault if you can't get it done in time - you were thrown in to a position you weren't familiar with - though I stand by the fact that you should tell your manager you are in need of help with it - whether it's internal or not. It will show that you are able to handle a project even when it has potential to fail, which is a real world scenario - it's just as important of a skill as being able to get stuff done. If you feel that BigCo, and companies of that size are really not your thing, then you need to do what will make you happy. It's a fact that you will at times have to do work you will not like, that's just life, but if you are sure that the larger company environment is not for you, which is fine - it's not for everyone, then you need to make a decision... if you feel that your lack of experience will hamper your progress though, then it might be in your best interest to wait it out and gain that experience at BigCo which hopefully is a big name that will look good on the resume. This is a big decision, make sure you read mine and everyone elses advice and really contemplate what you will be doing - even if it's early in your career.
Skywing 16y ago
Consider the coding project at work an investment in yourself. You're right, this isn't college anymore. Your performance at work and in groups directly affects your co-workers perception of you. Sure, if you truly hate the place then you probably won't care, but people are very good at detecting when other people truly dislike their job. This has a full circle impact. Getting yourself into this mentality will only make your experiences at that company less enjoyable for all the wrong reasons. If you actually cannot handle the task that you have been assigned, then speak up. Tell your project manager how you feel. Somewhere along the way you obviously gave them the impression that you were fine with the programming tasks, so they most likely are just not aware of your feelings towards programming. I would just advise against "giving up" and subconsciously forcing yourself out of that position or company. And of course you can always change jobs. If you dislike this company and can already tell that the big corporate life style isn't your thing then start looking for new jobs. Too early to switch jobs? I'd rather find one that I like now instead of 5 years from now.
- lostsoul 16y ago
  I was open about my previous experience when I started; I told them first-day that I have limited coding experience, and had not used the language they wanted me to develop in. In terms of switching jobs - I'm worried about appearing disloyal, and how it will look on my resume down the line.
dwc 16y ago
I don't understand why you're in a development position when you know you don't like it. And you're working for BigCo when you don't like it. Don't worry too much about switching after six months at this point. You just graduated and you're finding your place in the world. Explain yourself as you've done here, and don't make it a long-term pattern. The best way not to make it a long-term pattern is to find the kind of company you want to work for, doing work you like and are good at. As for how to get in somewhere... I had heard that if you really wanted to work somewhere then you should let them know, and also follow up. Once I picked a place that I wanted to work and I applied. They turned me down, saying there were no openings (I just cold applied, not in response to a job listing). Every few weeks I checked back with them. Yes, they hired me. ;-) I only did this once, but that makes my success rate 100%. YMMV.
- lostsoul 16y ago
  That sounds awesome dwc, I'm definitely with you on the power of persistence. Thanks for responding :)!
HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago
First, you don't realize how lucky you are: there are thousands of posts across the web about people complaining that their employers give them no training at all and you're basically getting 2 years of "apprenticeship" training right off the bat. Make the most of it. It will never happen again! This is old-skool training and more companies should be doing it. Second, your manager needs to know ASAP that you can't finish. Whatever the consequences of not finishing are, they will be much worse if it's a surprise to him at the deadline. Just walk into his office and TELL HIM. Don't sugarcoat it, just explain what's going on. I've had to deal with exactly this situation in the past month. It happens, we deal with it. People not being able to do the work isn't new to any experienced manager, he'll figure something out: that's his job. Yours is to keep him up to date. How bad is it in real life? In real life, not finishing a project on time can be the end of a company. I sincerely doubt you are doing anything that crucial, but you asked. Things get a lot more important when people are paying you to do them We all do shit that we "just don't enjoy" but we're paid to do them well anyway. It's not like they expect you to do this for the rest of your time there. Don't switch jobs unless you are otherwise a fantastic candidate and you can come up with an amazing excuse in the interview for why you only lasted 6 months. And it had better be along the lines of "the boss beat me daily with a stick because I wouldn't wash his car." No, I'm not kidding. What college did you go to that you got "do-overs?" Friggin' lucky. If we were late on an assignment, it was an automatic 50% off and got worse with each passing day (sometimes hourly). This isn't a rant, and I'm not picking on you. I read inexperience in your post and I think you have a great opportunity you're about to throw away. Think carefully before you do.
- elliottcarlson 16y ago
  Don't switch jobs unless you are otherwise a fantastic candidate and you can come up with an amazing excuse in the interview for why you only lasted 6 months. And it had better be along the lines of "the boss beat me daily with a stick because I wouldn't wash his car." No, I'm not kidding. I completely disagree with this statement - a job needs to go both ways, and just like some companies will make the wrong decision in the hiring process, a job applicant will make the wrong decision in which job to accept. It happens. Just don't make it a pattern - because then it's an issue.
soyelmango 16y ago
About switching jobs - 2 great articles from Mark Suster's 'Both sides of the table: http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job-hoppers-never-they-make-terrible-employees/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job... http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/25/job-hoppers-redux-an-employees-perspective/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/25/job-hoppers-re...
ig1 16y ago
If you're coming to the end of your cycle at the end of this month why are you thinking about leaving anyway - why not see how you find the next placement before you make any decisions? Talk to your manager and explain that you're not going to make the deadline, you're not going to be the first person to have missed a deadline and I doubt you'll be the last. It's highly unlikely that you'll get fired.
- lostsoul 16y ago
  Thanks for replying Imran. I'm definitely going to wait to see how I like the second placement, but I was worried about how companies generally deal with < 100% success with deliverables.
  - zb 16y ago
    Projects going over schedule are, uh, not exactly an uncommon occurrence. In fact if you've been honest with your manager about your level of skill (as you said in another comment) and assuming you've been keeping him up to date with progress and he hasn't done anything to get the project back on track (like getting you a mentor to work with), then it's really more his responsibility than yours if you don't finish. (That's not to say he's doing it wrong - this may be a deliberate strategy on his part; it's obviously not a life-or-death project.) On the other hand, if you wait until the last day before announcing that you're only 60% done, that is your responsibility. Don't be that guy. You should be talking to your manager now about how far along you are and what is an achievable state to leave the project in for somebody else to pick up (actually you should have started this some time back if you haven't already). e.g. you mentioned a lot of work went into gathering requirements - if you are not going to finish the project then that work probably needs to be captured. Communication is the key, and that's got nothing to do with whether you're doing coding or marketing. Nobody is going to make any inferences about your marketing abilities from your coding abilities or vice-versa, but if you prove yourself incapable of communicating with your team in either placement then, well, that would be the time to start getting worried. Failure is not always bad, but trying to cover up failure always leads to very, very bad things and it never, ever works. Remember that and you'll be fine.
atlantic 16y ago
You are raising two distinct issues. First, a situation in which you cannot finish your project on time. Second, the fact that the job/company does not meet your expectations. Before doing anything about the second point, deal with the first. Normally managers should only assign tasks that are possible, relative both to the timeframe and to your skillset. If you have the right skills and enough time, then you should do whatever it takes to finish, even in your own time, otherwise your self-confidence will suffer. If the time is too tight and/or you do not have the necessary skills/experience/training to do the job, then raise the issue with the manager more forcefully and asap. Repeat your message in an e-mail so that your complaint is officially registered and acknowledged. If there is a mismatch between the job description, as spelled out in your contract, and your actual work, this is also a legitimate issue. Once the first problem is out of the way, and you are again feeling comfortable at work, deal with the second issue. It is always legitimate to seek better work. The best way to switch jobs is to find a new job while still holding the old job. It is a catch-22 fact of life that no-one likes to give a job to someone who does not have one. Also, you will be in a much stronger negotiating position if you are still receiving a salary. When you go to an interview, argue along the lines that the job is going fine (do not criticize your old company/manager) and everyone is happy with your performance, but that you feel you need more challenge/less routine/a better fit to your skillset/a smaller environment etc. Good luck. Starting out in the world of employment is always a difficult time in life. Things will work out.

12 points by lostsoul 16y ago

elliottcarlson 16y ago

If you are not able to finish your project on time, you need to tell your manager as soon as possible. You may not have the experience to get it done, and that is fine in my opinion, but if there are deadlines, your manager needs to know sooner than later for damage control. As you said, there are possible do-overs when in college, but you need to do what you can to make a project succeed, even if that means admitting failure - it's a life lesson, failure should be acceptable, just make sure that your own failure doesn't affect others. You are almost at the end of your coding stint cycle - is the next six-month cycle more along your lines of what you want to do? If not, then I would look for something else. You have a goal of what you want to accomplish, and working on something that isn't even your field does not make sense for your future. I'm not a startup founder, but I do at times question when people have tons of short stint jobs - but if it's only one, then no big deal - a history of short stints here and there can raise concern, but even then it won't be an ultimate deciding factor when I choose to hire someone. Make sure your resume reflects your additional activities while in college - they may not be as necessary on there when you have more of a job history, but when you are first starting your resume, you want your potential employer to know what you are capable of - and this will get you callbacks where you can go in to more detail. Good luck!

lostsoul 16y ago
Thanks for the advice Elliot. Throughout the process, I've been open about my technical skills with my manager, but he keeps saying he has full confidence I can get it done; without any real advice. Luckily, its more of an independent internal project that replaces a process that's more manual right now, so it doesn't affect anything else. Yes, the next cycle is more related to what I do, but I don't want to get a reputation as someone who can't get stuff done; it's just that I feel 6 months is not enough time to learn a completely new language, especially when it took 3 months just to figure out the project requirements.
- elliottcarlson 16y ago
  It's not necessarily your fault if you can't get it done in time - you were thrown in to a position you weren't familiar with - though I stand by the fact that you should tell your manager you are in need of help with it - whether it's internal or not. It will show that you are able to handle a project even when it has potential to fail, which is a real world scenario - it's just as important of a skill as being able to get stuff done. If you feel that BigCo, and companies of that size are really not your thing, then you need to do what will make you happy. It's a fact that you will at times have to do work you will not like, that's just life, but if you are sure that the larger company environment is not for you, which is fine - it's not for everyone, then you need to make a decision... if you feel that your lack of experience will hamper your progress though, then it might be in your best interest to wait it out and gain that experience at BigCo which hopefully is a big name that will look good on the resume. This is a big decision, make sure you read mine and everyone elses advice and really contemplate what you will be doing - even if it's early in your career.

Skywing 16y ago

Consider the coding project at work an investment in yourself. You're right, this isn't college anymore. Your performance at work and in groups directly affects your co-workers perception of you. Sure, if you truly hate the place then you probably won't care, but people are very good at detecting when other people truly dislike their job. This has a full circle impact. Getting yourself into this mentality will only make your experiences at that company less enjoyable for all the wrong reasons. If you actually cannot handle the task that you have been assigned, then speak up. Tell your project manager how you feel. Somewhere along the way you obviously gave them the impression that you were fine with the programming tasks, so they most likely are just not aware of your feelings towards programming. I would just advise against "giving up" and subconsciously forcing yourself out of that position or company. And of course you can always change jobs. If you dislike this company and can already tell that the big corporate life style isn't your thing then start looking for new jobs. Too early to switch jobs? I'd rather find one that I like now instead of 5 years from now.

lostsoul 16y ago
I was open about my previous experience when I started; I told them first-day that I have limited coding experience, and had not used the language they wanted me to develop in. In terms of switching jobs - I'm worried about appearing disloyal, and how it will look on my resume down the line.

dwc 16y ago

I don't understand why you're in a development position when you know you don't like it. And you're working for BigCo when you don't like it. Don't worry too much about switching after six months at this point. You just graduated and you're finding your place in the world. Explain yourself as you've done here, and don't make it a long-term pattern. The best way not to make it a long-term pattern is to find the kind of company you want to work for, doing work you like and are good at. As for how to get in somewhere... I had heard that if you really wanted to work somewhere then you should let them know, and also follow up. Once I picked a place that I wanted to work and I applied. They turned me down, saying there were no openings (I just cold applied, not in response to a job listing). Every few weeks I checked back with them. Yes, they hired me. ;-) I only did this once, but that makes my success rate 100%. YMMV.

lostsoul 16y ago
That sounds awesome dwc, I'm definitely with you on the power of persistence. Thanks for responding :)!

HeyLaughingBoy 16y ago

First, you don't realize how lucky you are: there are thousands of posts across the web about people complaining that their employers give them no training at all and you're basically getting 2 years of "apprenticeship" training right off the bat. Make the most of it. It will never happen again! This is old-skool training and more companies should be doing it. Second, your manager needs to know ASAP that you can't finish. Whatever the consequences of not finishing are, they will be much worse if it's a surprise to him at the deadline. Just walk into his office and TELL HIM. Don't sugarcoat it, just explain what's going on. I've had to deal with exactly this situation in the past month. It happens, we deal with it. People not being able to do the work isn't new to any experienced manager, he'll figure something out: that's his job. Yours is to keep him up to date. How bad is it in real life? In real life, not finishing a project on time can be the end of a company. I sincerely doubt you are doing anything that crucial, but you asked. Things get a lot more important when people are paying you to do them We all do shit that we "just don't enjoy" but we're paid to do them well anyway. It's not like they expect you to do this for the rest of your time there. Don't switch jobs unless you are otherwise a fantastic candidate and you can come up with an amazing excuse in the interview for why you only lasted 6 months. And it had better be along the lines of "the boss beat me daily with a stick because I wouldn't wash his car." No, I'm not kidding. What college did you go to that you got "do-overs?" Friggin' lucky. If we were late on an assignment, it was an automatic 50% off and got worse with each passing day (sometimes hourly). This isn't a rant, and I'm not picking on you. I read inexperience in your post and I think you have a great opportunity you're about to throw away. Think carefully before you do.

elliottcarlson 16y ago
Don't switch jobs unless you are otherwise a fantastic candidate and you can come up with an amazing excuse in the interview for why you only lasted 6 months. And it had better be along the lines of "the boss beat me daily with a stick because I wouldn't wash his car." No, I'm not kidding. I completely disagree with this statement - a job needs to go both ways, and just like some companies will make the wrong decision in the hiring process, a job applicant will make the wrong decision in which job to accept. It happens. Just don't make it a pattern - because then it's an issue.

soyelmango 16y ago

About switching jobs - 2 great articles from Mark Suster's 'Both sides of the table: http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job-hoppers-never-they-make-terrible-employees/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/22/never-hire-job... http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/25/job-hoppers-redux-an-employees-perspective/ http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2010/04/25/job-hoppers-re...

ig1 16y ago

If you're coming to the end of your cycle at the end of this month why are you thinking about leaving anyway - why not see how you find the next placement before you make any decisions? Talk to your manager and explain that you're not going to make the deadline, you're not going to be the first person to have missed a deadline and I doubt you'll be the last. It's highly unlikely that you'll get fired.

lostsoul 16y ago
Thanks for replying Imran. I'm definitely going to wait to see how I like the second placement, but I was worried about how companies generally deal with < 100% success with deliverables.
- zb 16y ago
  Projects going over schedule are, uh, not exactly an uncommon occurrence. In fact if you've been honest with your manager about your level of skill (as you said in another comment) and assuming you've been keeping him up to date with progress and he hasn't done anything to get the project back on track (like getting you a mentor to work with), then it's really more his responsibility than yours if you don't finish. (That's not to say he's doing it wrong - this may be a deliberate strategy on his part; it's obviously not a life-or-death project.) On the other hand, if you wait until the last day before announcing that you're only 60% done, that is your responsibility. Don't be that guy. You should be talking to your manager now about how far along you are and what is an achievable state to leave the project in for somebody else to pick up (actually you should have started this some time back if you haven't already). e.g. you mentioned a lot of work went into gathering requirements - if you are not going to finish the project then that work probably needs to be captured. Communication is the key, and that's got nothing to do with whether you're doing coding or marketing. Nobody is going to make any inferences about your marketing abilities from your coding abilities or vice-versa, but if you prove yourself incapable of communicating with your team in either placement then, well, that would be the time to start getting worried. Failure is not always bad, but trying to cover up failure always leads to very, very bad things and it never, ever works. Remember that and you'll be fine.

atlantic 16y ago

You are raising two distinct issues. First, a situation in which you cannot finish your project on time. Second, the fact that the job/company does not meet your expectations. Before doing anything about the second point, deal with the first. Normally managers should only assign tasks that are possible, relative both to the timeframe and to your skillset. If you have the right skills and enough time, then you should do whatever it takes to finish, even in your own time, otherwise your self-confidence will suffer. If the time is too tight and/or you do not have the necessary skills/experience/training to do the job, then raise the issue with the manager more forcefully and asap. Repeat your message in an e-mail so that your complaint is officially registered and acknowledged. If there is a mismatch between the job description, as spelled out in your contract, and your actual work, this is also a legitimate issue. Once the first problem is out of the way, and you are again feeling comfortable at work, deal with the second issue. It is always legitimate to seek better work. The best way to switch jobs is to find a new job while still holding the old job. It is a catch-22 fact of life that no-one likes to give a job to someone who does not have one. Also, you will be in a much stronger negotiating position if you are still receiving a salary. When you go to an interview, argue along the lines that the job is going fine (do not criticize your old company/manager) and everyone is happy with your performance, but that you feel you need more challenge/less routine/a better fit to your skillset/a smaller environment etc. Good luck. Starting out in the world of employment is always a difficult time in life. Things will work out.