4 ms·

Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they d

by helge5 7y ago

Wrt to social security stuff, one should proactively run a "Statusfeststellungsverfahren" - you fill out some forms and the authorities will tell you how they declare you. That puts you on a safer side. Also there _is_ an "avoiding the cost of social security". If they consider you properly self employed and independent, you do not pay gov social security stuff, but you need to insure yourself (using private insurance companies). That is why the process mentioned above is important. If you register self-employed but later they declare you as dependently-employed, gov social security has to be paid! Something you should avoid upfront, can be super expensive. So => "Statusfeststellungsverfahren"!

throwaway9283i 7y ago
I do not want to save any money in taxes, health insurance, social insurance or pension fund. I am actually happy to pay all this. Nevertheless I heard horror stories even by doing so you are at risk they will f..k you anyway after a Prüfung (audit) within the first five years or so. I even want to stay in the public health insurance (freiwillig gesetzlich versichert). I actually do not want to benefit from being self employed. I just want to make it legal.
- helge5 7y ago
  I can feel your pain, but that is really not what this is about. It is all about the rules/laws :-) Your's is an pretty edgy case. All people I know which have been employed dependently by a foreign company, have been employed by a local subsidiary (and I can understand that your foreign employer won't open one just for you). Just a wild guess: If you are above the minimum income for dependent-employees allowed to be privately ensured, I assume all should be good. But I would still do the "status feststellungsverfahren", or maybe just call them. I think they have a hotline. (In general many answers/threads here may not be really relevant for you as they are focused around self-employment. What you really want is to be a "dependently-employee-in-a-foreign-company". I have no idea how that works, maybe just do make an appointment w/ a work-lawyer).
  - leethargo 7y ago
    Before I started my current job with a company in Thailand, I met with a tax accountant that specializes in international tax law. She looked up the German-Thai agreement and explained to me that I could be employed there regulary and pay taxes in Germany exclusively. With that info, I traveled there for the onboarding (and getting a working visa), only to learn that the local tax authorities disagreed. My boss then suggested to just have me invoice him for the time being, until a subsidiary is created in the EU. Still waiting after two years :-\
leethargo 7y ago
Thanks for the hint about Statusfeststellungsverfahren, I will research that. I had previously filled the questionaire from Finanzamt and they had accepted my status of "freiberuflich" w.r.t. software dev. The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become employed again in the future. Apparently, there is some risk of not being accepted by the public insurers after one had quit.
- throwaway9283i 7y ago
  Depending on your health records, staying voluntarily in the public insurance is the best thing you can do.
  - helge5 7y ago
    That is the way more ethical thing, but it is almost never the best thing from either a financial and certainly not from a health perspective _if_ you exceed a certain income (and the barrier here is pretty low unless you have many kids, which depending on your income distribution you may have to privately insure separately). If you are self-employed, the public insurance is really nothing more but another (rather unattractive) insurance company you can choose from.
    - helge5 7y ago
      @throwaway9283i - I think you are indeed wrong. AFAIK if you are self-employed the gov insurance doesn't have to take you either! Yet both have to take you using that "base tariff" (600? Euro or sth) since a few years (before a self-employed could end up w/ no insurance at all, not possible anymore). It is true that the private insurance increases significantly over the years, but it is still WAY less than the gov insurance. The costs for the gov insurance is about 25% of your salary (remember, it's split between employer and employee, but as a self-employed you have to pay both sides). Assuming an income of just 5k per month, that would be 1.25k! per month, or more than twice the base tariff. It often becomes problematic for self-employed low-wage workers when they enter pension. Which they often don't setup, and hence can't even pay their health insurance :-/ (and then move into social security, which again provides everything) That it is difficult to get back to the public insurance is just non-sense unless you exceed a certain age. In fact you have to, whether you want or not, by law.

by helge5 7y ago

throwaway9283i 7y ago

I do not want to save any money in taxes, health insurance, social insurance or pension fund. I am actually happy to pay all this. Nevertheless I heard horror stories even by doing so you are at risk they will f..k you anyway after a Prüfung (audit) within the first five years or so. I even want to stay in the public health insurance (freiwillig gesetzlich versichert). I actually do not want to benefit from being self employed. I just want to make it legal.

helge5 7y ago
I can feel your pain, but that is really not what this is about. It is all about the rules/laws :-) Your's is an pretty edgy case. All people I know which have been employed dependently by a foreign company, have been employed by a local subsidiary (and I can understand that your foreign employer won't open one just for you). Just a wild guess: If you are above the minimum income for dependent-employees allowed to be privately ensured, I assume all should be good. But I would still do the "status feststellungsverfahren", or maybe just call them. I think they have a hotline. (In general many answers/threads here may not be really relevant for you as they are focused around self-employment. What you really want is to be a "dependently-employee-in-a-foreign-company". I have no idea how that works, maybe just do make an appointment w/ a work-lawyer).
- leethargo 7y ago
  Before I started my current job with a company in Thailand, I met with a tax accountant that specializes in international tax law. She looked up the German-Thai agreement and explained to me that I could be employed there regulary and pay taxes in Germany exclusively. With that info, I traveled there for the onboarding (and getting a working visa), only to learn that the local tax authorities disagreed. My boss then suggested to just have me invoice him for the time being, until a subsidiary is created in the EU. Still waiting after two years :-\

leethargo 7y ago

Thanks for the hint about Statusfeststellungsverfahren, I will research that. I had previously filled the questionaire from Finanzamt and they had accepted my status of "freiberuflich" w.r.t. software dev. The possibility to use private insurance depends on having some minimum amount of income. Also, I currently use the option to use public insurance (voluntarily) so that I can easily switch back to it once I become employed again in the future. Apparently, there is some risk of not being accepted by the public insurers after one had quit.

throwaway9283i 7y ago
Depending on your health records, staying voluntarily in the public insurance is the best thing you can do.
- helge5 7y ago
  That is the way more ethical thing, but it is almost never the best thing from either a financial and certainly not from a health perspective _if_ you exceed a certain income (and the barrier here is pretty low unless you have many kids, which depending on your income distribution you may have to privately insure separately). If you are self-employed, the public insurance is really nothing more but another (rather unattractive) insurance company you can choose from.
  - helge5 7y ago
    @throwaway9283i - I think you are indeed wrong. AFAIK if you are self-employed the gov insurance doesn't have to take you either! Yet both have to take you using that "base tariff" (600? Euro or sth) since a few years (before a self-employed could end up w/ no insurance at all, not possible anymore). It is true that the private insurance increases significantly over the years, but it is still WAY less than the gov insurance. The costs for the gov insurance is about 25% of your salary (remember, it's split between employer and employee, but as a self-employed you have to pay both sides). Assuming an income of just 5k per month, that would be 1.25k! per month, or more than twice the base tariff. It often becomes problematic for self-employed low-wage workers when they enter pension. Which they often don't setup, and hence can't even pay their health insurance :-/ (and then move into social security, which again provides everything) That it is difficult to get back to the public insurance is just non-sense unless you exceed a certain age. In fact you have to, whether you want or not, by law.