5 ms·

I'm hiring a lot at the moment, I have multiple interviews every day, we had 100s of candidates, but not a single one had more than a getting-started project on

I'm hiring a lot at the moment, I have multiple interviews every day, we had 100s of candidates, but not a single one had more than a getting-started project on their GitHub profile. I'd take open source code any day over our coding exercise, but I cannot hire people without seeing some code first.

fsniper 7y ago
Do you offer any engineer as a pair for the testing? Or can you except personal project codebase offers instead of the automated tests? Also don't you have an onsite technical interview process that you use to assess the candidates abilities which invalidates any need for online coding tests? If you can't answer yes to these questions. Unfortunately you are part of the problem.
- Lunatic666 7y ago
  Those algorithm test platforms are completely useless. I stopped using them long ago. No engineer I hire has to sort shit or filter out duplicates. I assume they know the sort functions in the language. I ask engineers with a blank GitHub to implement a small demo project which shouldn't take longer than 2-3h to finish and they have 2 weeks time (or actually as long as they need) to deliver. It gives me a lot of insight, I can see how people structure their code and if the code looks sloppy etc. You don't get a normal day at work result if you put people under pressure with these pseudo-hacker platforms. Most of the candidates have a life and I don't expect them to spend their evenings on some platform to impress potential new employers.
- Lunatic666 7y ago
  But I haven't answered your question precisely: We don't offer a pair, because we don't use the coding platforms. I'd say the homework counts about 80%, the following tech interview 20%. Of course I have to trust the candidates that they made the homework themselves, but if you don't start on a trust basis that would be a really bad starting point. There's still probation to make sure they're a good fit. I'm investing a lot more work into vetting when it's an overseas candidate compared to local, but mostly to make sure we don't put someone on the street, because I didn't do my job properly.
  - fsniper 7y ago
    This process still doesn't cover my problems. I do have the experience, and have the code to show. Why would I be subject to a "homework"? This process objectively discriminate against people with enough age and experience, but don't have the time outside work. Even just not having the will to do a "homework" is an enough reason to pass. Are you hunting for young eager engineers who can put the most to self proving, or a diverse experience base? I am not suggesting anything against your process, but highlighting the shortcomings. I would probably pass your interview process directly.
ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
Yeah...but you see, I have committed a serious, unforgivable crime. I've allowed myself to become old. I'm well past 40. Most of the time, rejections come within a couple of hours of submission, so I know that a "robo-scrubber" detected eld, and bounced my résumé. It's actually funny. I see a position advertised, where I am a 100% fit, I submit a CV, and get a bounce within an hour. Then I see the position still being advertised weeks later. I have considered adding the following line to the top of my LinkedIN profile: "Let's just get this out of the way: I'm over 40. If that's a problem, then let's not waste each others' time." I REALLY don't want to work anywhere that I'm not wanted. I have the rare privilege of being able to do more or less what I want. I love coding. I'm an outstanding manager, but I don't love it.
- Lunatic666 7y ago
  I'm 41 and just hired a 50 year old devops guy, because he's good, a little nuts and fits our salary range. The problem with older developers for me is mostly the salary expectations. I'm looking for mid level or senior people, but for most developer positions a few years experience are enough – we're not doing rocket science and the extra experience only makes them more expensive, not more effective. This looks totally different for architect level positions where someone at 25 years just isn't credible enough.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
    As I've already stated, I would have (the key is "would have") been happy to take a fairly low salary or work as a contractor, as long as the work was interesting and the environment bearable. It's just not gotten to that part. In some cases, a decent salary would have been required in order to support a move to a higher-cost-of-living area, but it still would have probably been surprisingly low. As a manager, I made a pretty decent salary for a long time. I would not expect that, as a coder. I have received a few rather direct answers, and once was privileged to be accidentally CCd in an email, discussing my age. It's illegal as hell, but hard to prove, and not worth it. If you make a big deal out of it, you blackball yourself. This kind of behavior has been rampant in the finance industry for decades. It's still crazy as hell, with 25-year-old kids running billions of dollars worth of other people's money through virtual slot machines, while acting like drunken frat boys. When there's money to be made, people will look the other way. Check out the industries where there's not a lot of money to be made, like social service or education. You will see people being keelhauled regularly.

fsniper 7y ago

Do you offer any engineer as a pair for the testing? Or can you except personal project codebase offers instead of the automated tests? Also don't you have an onsite technical interview process that you use to assess the candidates abilities which invalidates any need for online coding tests? If you can't answer yes to these questions. Unfortunately you are part of the problem.

Lunatic666 7y ago
Those algorithm test platforms are completely useless. I stopped using them long ago. No engineer I hire has to sort shit or filter out duplicates. I assume they know the sort functions in the language. I ask engineers with a blank GitHub to implement a small demo project which shouldn't take longer than 2-3h to finish and they have 2 weeks time (or actually as long as they need) to deliver. It gives me a lot of insight, I can see how people structure their code and if the code looks sloppy etc. You don't get a normal day at work result if you put people under pressure with these pseudo-hacker platforms. Most of the candidates have a life and I don't expect them to spend their evenings on some platform to impress potential new employers.
Lunatic666 7y ago
But I haven't answered your question precisely: We don't offer a pair, because we don't use the coding platforms. I'd say the homework counts about 80%, the following tech interview 20%. Of course I have to trust the candidates that they made the homework themselves, but if you don't start on a trust basis that would be a really bad starting point. There's still probation to make sure they're a good fit. I'm investing a lot more work into vetting when it's an overseas candidate compared to local, but mostly to make sure we don't put someone on the street, because I didn't do my job properly.
- fsniper 7y ago
  This process still doesn't cover my problems. I do have the experience, and have the code to show. Why would I be subject to a "homework"? This process objectively discriminate against people with enough age and experience, but don't have the time outside work. Even just not having the will to do a "homework" is an enough reason to pass. Are you hunting for young eager engineers who can put the most to self proving, or a diverse experience base? I am not suggesting anything against your process, but highlighting the shortcomings. I would probably pass your interview process directly.

ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago

Yeah...but you see, I have committed a serious, unforgivable crime. I've allowed myself to become old. I'm well past 40. Most of the time, rejections come within a couple of hours of submission, so I know that a "robo-scrubber" detected eld, and bounced my résumé. It's actually funny. I see a position advertised, where I am a 100% fit, I submit a CV, and get a bounce within an hour. Then I see the position still being advertised weeks later. I have considered adding the following line to the top of my LinkedIN profile: "Let's just get this out of the way: I'm over 40. If that's a problem, then let's not waste each others' time." I REALLY don't want to work anywhere that I'm not wanted. I have the rare privilege of being able to do more or less what I want. I love coding. I'm an outstanding manager, but I don't love it.

Lunatic666 7y ago
I'm 41 and just hired a 50 year old devops guy, because he's good, a little nuts and fits our salary range. The problem with older developers for me is mostly the salary expectations. I'm looking for mid level or senior people, but for most developer positions a few years experience are enough – we're not doing rocket science and the extra experience only makes them more expensive, not more effective. This looks totally different for architect level positions where someone at 25 years just isn't credible enough.
- ChrisMarshallNY 7y ago
  As I've already stated, I would have (the key is "would have") been happy to take a fairly low salary or work as a contractor, as long as the work was interesting and the environment bearable. It's just not gotten to that part. In some cases, a decent salary would have been required in order to support a move to a higher-cost-of-living area, but it still would have probably been surprisingly low. As a manager, I made a pretty decent salary for a long time. I would not expect that, as a coder. I have received a few rather direct answers, and once was privileged to be accidentally CCd in an email, discussing my age. It's illegal as hell, but hard to prove, and not worth it. If you make a big deal out of it, you blackball yourself. This kind of behavior has been rampant in the finance industry for decades. It's still crazy as hell, with 25-year-old kids running billions of dollars worth of other people's money through virtual slot machines, while acting like drunken frat boys. When there's money to be made, people will look the other way. Check out the industries where there's not a lot of money to be made, like social service or education. You will see people being keelhauled regularly.