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I'm British. Thanks to my passport and digital nomading I have spent the last 4 years travelling the world. In that time I have gone from thinking of Britain be

by tombh 7y ago

I'm British. Thanks to my passport and digital nomading I have spent the last 4 years travelling the world. In that time I have gone from thinking of Britain being a relatively normal country (did some bad things in history, but made significant contributions too), to seeing it in the same league as the countries we were taught to despise in school. I am perhaps a good case study of the shift in thinking that so-called "Winners" need to take. The facts of Britain's (and the rest of the Western World's) history are plain to see. Say in Wikipedia for example, for sure there's bias, but African slavery, Native American decimation, the Opium Wars, the Bengali Famine, the theft of "Commonwealth", to name but a few, are all there. It's that there's simply no impetus to feel any of this, nobody has the power to force us to truly contemplate what we've done, because Britain and its ilk are at the top of the power pyramid. But travelling suddenly makes all of this personal. "Made in China" takes such a more deeper meaning when you literally made friends with them in their own land. I just can't get so angry about Indian email scammers when I've probably met them or their family and learnt that our Queen wears their precious jewels in her crown like an evil, unfeeling, global bully. I made these shifts relatively easily, because like most Western people, I have a heart and perhaps ironically I was taught in school to make judgements based on facts. But I needed to be unrooted from my native context, that is just not going to happen on a large enough scale. What if the actual more fundamental problem raised by the Climate Emergency is this large-scale switch in context? What if we put our energy into that instead of reducing C02? Of course that'll never happen, it's chicken and egg, the motivation doesn't come until you understand the bigger picture. What's more the climate serves as a convenient foil for avoiding the existential sea-change by giving us an all too logistical problem to face instead. I'm glad to see this article on the front page. There is some progress. There are indeed significant seams of Western society which accept such self criticism. Even though most of us did not knowingly cause the damage, we are the only people that can meaningfully take responsibility. It's not fair, but that's the path ahead.

syshum 7y ago
>>we are the only people that can meaningfully take responsibility. It's not fair, but that's the path ahead. This is where you lose me.. I am fully supporting of free trade, free exchange of information, making those nations the best through trade and education. Even sending them some aide if needed, wanted and put to good use (not supporting authoritarian governments) But the sins of the part are not my responsibility at all, dont attempt to foist them upon me
- pimmen 7y ago
  But you’re profiting off of the sins committed in the past, and somebody else is paying for them. Does that not make you feel something?
  - syshum 7y ago
    >> Does that not make you feel something? No >>But you’re profiting off of the sins committed in the past, and somebody else is paying for them. I do not believe I am, not in the way you are implying. You have no idea what my family history is, or what indivual actions they took, instead you are imparting these historical sins upon me because I may be a part of a nation today or may have part of a race in my genetic make up that may or may not committed what in modern context we call "sins" when we look back upon history through our modern eyes It also makes many many assumptions about what the state of those nations would have been with out "interference" from the west, Assumption I do not believe you can accurately make The further back in history you go the worse those assumption get as well.
    - pimmen 7y ago
      I’m not imparting the sins of whatever country you happen to live in on you or your family. I see it akin to finding money on the street, growing up, and then finding out they were stolen. That would make me feel something, even if neither I nor anyone in my family stole that money. And I’m not arguing against Western contact with other nations, I’m merely stating that the West profited off of immoral things towards other civilizations that those nations are still paying for. The Dutch extracting oil from the Dutch East Indies by wiping out cultures island to island, laying the ground work for wars to break out in the power vacuum, is hard to see as anything but a crime against the native people, the instability it caused hobbling that part of the world to this day, that was exclusively beneficial for the Netherlands. That doesn’t mean that the Dutch should feel shame for having been in contact at all with those cultures but a Dutch person who profits off of the business generated by Royal Dutch Shell should probably feel something when they hear about political instability in Indonesia. And when that part of the world becomes uninhabitable because of climate change, and the Indonesian economy can’t handle adapting to that, I think a Dutch person should feel something.
ignoramous 7y ago
I don't think it is right to hold it against any race or creed or nation responsible for the past misgivings. It is not as if India pre-colonialism was a heaven for its citizens back then. The income disparity in the Hindi heartland was at its zenith during the 400 year turko-persian Mughal rule, not to mention the racist policies against both the minority Shi'a populace and the majority Hindus. History is fraught with humans exploiting the system, the planet, the masses, their families either through promises like salvation, love, and progress, or through force like imperialism and governance. There is a running joke among Indians wanting the Simon Commission to come back [0] given the current state of the ruling class. In the context of climate change; however, it is important for the nations of the world to take drastic measures or suffer consequences never seen before. Though the Tropical countries are both the worst and immediately affected by climate change, the ripples will be felt world-wide, as a changing planet is going to hit everyone hard, eventually, if not immediately. The only worry is if it leads to mass civil unrest among some of the most populated countries resulting in a global military struggle instead of reaching resolution through co-operation and collaboration. As civilians, we hope for the latter, but the power-grabbers / the usurpers might favour the former, and that's nothing new and nothing limited to the Western hemisphere. If anyone in the East insists on playing the victim and perpetually blames the European imperialistic designs of yesteryears for their current perils, it is lazy ignorance at best and incompetence at worst, imo. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Commission
- tombh 7y ago
  I maintain the right to criticise my nation. I am just a single member, but such individuals are the only components that make up the whole. If I don't take responsibility then who will?
  - bestouff 7y ago
    Of course, but let others do the same. I'm French, I travel, I know that feeling.
simonh 7y ago
Fellow Brit. I won’t say a single word against your post. You’re absolutely correct. We also held the development of countries like India back by insisting that to get an education they would have to travel to the UK. No major colleges, or heaven forbid Universities, for the colonies. Nevertheless, the idea that colonialism is responsible for these countries current woes is misleading. My wife is Chinese and she used to tell me that China was poor because British people took away all their wealth in the 1800s. She can see now that’s not the case. China is a superpower now not because they threw off the yoke of imperialism in the 1980s. They did that in the 1940s. The trouble is they wasted decades on Communism. Japan got with the modernisation program early and went from medieval backwater to superpower able to go toe to toe with the USA in a couple of generations. South Korea, Taiwan and then China did the same. In my lifetime China has gone from being a backward joke in Russia’s shadow to a globally dominant economy. Britain narrowly avoided serious economic paralysis with our experiments with nationalisation in the 60s. Fortunately we shook it off in the 80s and got our mojo back. The point is, it’s incredibly easy to get your economy stuck in a rut for generations, and let the rest of the world pass you by. Alternatively, it’s possible to modernise and get right back up to speed in a few decades, if you have the commitment. Plenty of countries in all sorts of different circumstances have done both.
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
Even Thatcher in speeches back in the 80s about CO2, NO2 and CFCs acknowledged the West should pay more by dint of being already developed. CO2 action was marked by how insignificant it was, starting with Chile that was ineffectual in the extreme. CFCs got backing from Reagan, though Carter had already started a phase out in aerosols, CO2 didn't. I've seen some claims that in part that backing was because Reagan had had skin cancer in the early 80s. The current generation of politicians around the globe seem content to ignore any sense of responsibility either globally or locally. Sure there's much to be embarrassed of being British, continuing into the modern era by our status as national laughing stock over the last 3 years. Yet there's much you don't mention, like the African slave trade having hundreds of years of African raids on European coasts, as far north as Britain and Ireland, occasionally Iceland, or the Barbary pirates and millions of Europeans having gone through. The Western Europeans didn't invent that, they continued it in developed markets that were endemic in the local culture. I wish we hadn't, I wish we had abolished it earlier, but it's not as black and white as you paint it. The earliest interactions of West and India was much more modern in outlook - intermarriage was commonplace, racism came later as we move well into the 19th century. So commonplace that it was actually encouraged. Many converted too. By the mid 19th century that history was being discouraged and whitewashed out of existence. We are where we are, and cannot change the mores of English, Indian, or any other nation or continent, but trying to view the whole of history with 21st century outlook is a minefield, fraught with tripwires, "reasons" and exceptions. 300 years of every nation's history will reveal plenty we might wish hadn't happened. TL;DR Britain and the other developed nations should be doing far, far more to aid the developing world on climate. Simply because we're developed. Britain could start by banning fossil fuel projects in our overseas aid, which is a bloody embarrassment, and replacing with more future oriented projects. Eventually, hopefully soon enough, we're going to have to accept we can't let the developing world off the hook on carbon treaties. As they develop 10 or 20 years past the treaty to emit like India and China yet still count as developing countries with no commitment to meet. The developed nations will have to accept they're probably going to have to pay for that. Otherwise we're probably screwed, because I doubt anyone is going to accept "well you just have to stay undeveloped for the good of the planet".
- tenpies 7y ago

by tombh 7y ago

syshum 7y ago

>>we are the only people that can meaningfully take responsibility. It's not fair, but that's the path ahead. This is where you lose me.. I am fully supporting of free trade, free exchange of information, making those nations the best through trade and education. Even sending them some aide if needed, wanted and put to good use (not supporting authoritarian governments) But the sins of the part are not my responsibility at all, dont attempt to foist them upon me

pimmen 7y ago
But you’re profiting off of the sins committed in the past, and somebody else is paying for them. Does that not make you feel something?
- syshum 7y ago
  >> Does that not make you feel something? No >>But you’re profiting off of the sins committed in the past, and somebody else is paying for them. I do not believe I am, not in the way you are implying. You have no idea what my family history is, or what indivual actions they took, instead you are imparting these historical sins upon me because I may be a part of a nation today or may have part of a race in my genetic make up that may or may not committed what in modern context we call "sins" when we look back upon history through our modern eyes It also makes many many assumptions about what the state of those nations would have been with out "interference" from the west, Assumption I do not believe you can accurately make The further back in history you go the worse those assumption get as well.
  - pimmen 7y ago
    I’m not imparting the sins of whatever country you happen to live in on you or your family. I see it akin to finding money on the street, growing up, and then finding out they were stolen. That would make me feel something, even if neither I nor anyone in my family stole that money. And I’m not arguing against Western contact with other nations, I’m merely stating that the West profited off of immoral things towards other civilizations that those nations are still paying for. The Dutch extracting oil from the Dutch East Indies by wiping out cultures island to island, laying the ground work for wars to break out in the power vacuum, is hard to see as anything but a crime against the native people, the instability it caused hobbling that part of the world to this day, that was exclusively beneficial for the Netherlands. That doesn’t mean that the Dutch should feel shame for having been in contact at all with those cultures but a Dutch person who profits off of the business generated by Royal Dutch Shell should probably feel something when they hear about political instability in Indonesia. And when that part of the world becomes uninhabitable because of climate change, and the Indonesian economy can’t handle adapting to that, I think a Dutch person should feel something.

ignoramous 7y ago

I don't think it is right to hold it against any race or creed or nation responsible for the past misgivings. It is not as if India pre-colonialism was a heaven for its citizens back then. The income disparity in the Hindi heartland was at its zenith during the 400 year turko-persian Mughal rule, not to mention the racist policies against both the minority Shi'a populace and the majority Hindus. History is fraught with humans exploiting the system, the planet, the masses, their families either through promises like salvation, love, and progress, or through force like imperialism and governance. There is a running joke among Indians wanting the Simon Commission to come back [0] given the current state of the ruling class. In the context of climate change; however, it is important for the nations of the world to take drastic measures or suffer consequences never seen before. Though the Tropical countries are both the worst and immediately affected by climate change, the ripples will be felt world-wide, as a changing planet is going to hit everyone hard, eventually, if not immediately. The only worry is if it leads to mass civil unrest among some of the most populated countries resulting in a global military struggle instead of reaching resolution through co-operation and collaboration. As civilians, we hope for the latter, but the power-grabbers / the usurpers might favour the former, and that's nothing new and nothing limited to the Western hemisphere. If anyone in the East insists on playing the victim and perpetually blames the European imperialistic designs of yesteryears for their current perils, it is lazy ignorance at best and incompetence at worst, imo. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Commission

tombh 7y ago
I maintain the right to criticise my nation. I am just a single member, but such individuals are the only components that make up the whole. If I don't take responsibility then who will?
- bestouff 7y ago
  Of course, but let others do the same. I'm French, I travel, I know that feeling.

simonh 7y ago

Fellow Brit. I won’t say a single word against your post. You’re absolutely correct. We also held the development of countries like India back by insisting that to get an education they would have to travel to the UK. No major colleges, or heaven forbid Universities, for the colonies. Nevertheless, the idea that colonialism is responsible for these countries current woes is misleading. My wife is Chinese and she used to tell me that China was poor because British people took away all their wealth in the 1800s. She can see now that’s not the case. China is a superpower now not because they threw off the yoke of imperialism in the 1980s. They did that in the 1940s. The trouble is they wasted decades on Communism. Japan got with the modernisation program early and went from medieval backwater to superpower able to go toe to toe with the USA in a couple of generations. South Korea, Taiwan and then China did the same. In my lifetime China has gone from being a backward joke in Russia’s shadow to a globally dominant economy. Britain narrowly avoided serious economic paralysis with our experiments with nationalisation in the 60s. Fortunately we shook it off in the 80s and got our mojo back. The point is, it’s incredibly easy to get your economy stuck in a rut for generations, and let the rest of the world pass you by. Alternatively, it’s possible to modernise and get right back up to speed in a few decades, if you have the commitment. Plenty of countries in all sorts of different circumstances have done both.

NeedMoreTea 7y ago

Even Thatcher in speeches back in the 80s about CO2, NO2 and CFCs acknowledged the West should pay more by dint of being already developed. CO2 action was marked by how insignificant it was, starting with Chile that was ineffectual in the extreme. CFCs got backing from Reagan, though Carter had already started a phase out in aerosols, CO2 didn't. I've seen some claims that in part that backing was because Reagan had had skin cancer in the early 80s. The current generation of politicians around the globe seem content to ignore any sense of responsibility either globally or locally. Sure there's much to be embarrassed of being British, continuing into the modern era by our status as national laughing stock over the last 3 years. Yet there's much you don't mention, like the African slave trade having hundreds of years of African raids on European coasts, as far north as Britain and Ireland, occasionally Iceland, or the Barbary pirates and millions of Europeans having gone through. The Western Europeans didn't invent that, they continued it in developed markets that were endemic in the local culture. I wish we hadn't, I wish we had abolished it earlier, but it's not as black and white as you paint it. The earliest interactions of West and India was much more modern in outlook - intermarriage was commonplace, racism came later as we move well into the 19th century. So commonplace that it was actually encouraged. Many converted too. By the mid 19th century that history was being discouraged and whitewashed out of existence. We are where we are, and cannot change the mores of English, Indian, or any other nation or continent, but trying to view the whole of history with 21st century outlook is a minefield, fraught with tripwires, "reasons" and exceptions. 300 years of every nation's history will reveal plenty we might wish hadn't happened. TL;DR Britain and the other developed nations should be doing far, far more to aid the developing world on climate. Simply because we're developed. Britain could start by banning fossil fuel projects in our overseas aid, which is a bloody embarrassment, and replacing with more future oriented projects. Eventually, hopefully soon enough, we're going to have to accept we can't let the developing world off the hook on carbon treaties. As they develop 10 or 20 years past the treaty to emit like India and China yet still count as developing countries with no commitment to meet. The developed nations will have to accept they're probably going to have to pay for that. Otherwise we're probably screwed, because I doubt anyone is going to accept "well you just have to stay undeveloped for the good of the planet".

tenpies 7y ago