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I think Kotlin has also leapfrogged D on this — Google blessing it for Android use and an Android community clearly hoping for something better than an aeons-ol

by pdpi 7y ago

I think Kotlin has also leapfrogged D on this — Google blessing it for Android use and an Android community clearly hoping for something better than an aeons-old version of Java goes a very long way. The Android success story might just be what the language needs to establish itself enough that it’ll become a backend staple too

klez 7y ago
Not a datapoint by any means, but I think kotlin gained grounds mostly on Android, seeing the questions on stack overflow. When they ask about kotlin it's almost always in the context of Android, while Java questions seem to cover a wider range of fields and platforms. So, could it be more of a reaction to java-for-android being sub-optimal or the fact that Google suggests kotlin to new developers than Java itself being sub-optimal for the task?
pjmlp 7y ago
I think Kotlin's future is tied to Android's. Outside Android there are better options. On the JVM, just like any other platform, is safer to bet on the systems language of the platform than guest languages with extra debugging layers, tooling and their own wrappers for idiomatic code. Then Kotlin is trying to stretch too much, meaning that any portable Kotlin code cannot depend on any platform or needs multiple implementations. Finally Kotlin/Native has special semantics for handling data structures, as it tries to be Swift like, so special care is needed when the code is supposed to be used from Kotlin/Native as well.
- ptx 7y ago
  > Finally Kotlin/Native has special semantics for handling data structures, as it tries to be Swift like If you mean Swift's issue with having to use weak references to prevent cycles, Kotlin/Native doesn't do that – they have a cycle collector, so it should behave the same as Kotlin/JVM. It does have a different threading model though, where you can't share mutable structures between threads. Very recently they've introduced a "relaxed" mode that does allow it, but it's extremely experimental and sounds like it would be slow (since it can't defer updating reference counts). (Also, what are you referring to with "extra debugging layers, tooling and their own wrappers" for Kotlin on the JVM? I can use IntelliJ + Maven + Spring with either Java or Kotlin. I don't see any extra layers.)
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Yep, I mean the semantic model for data structures. Try to call idiomatic Kotlin code from Java and see how it looks like. Specially when co-routines and similar higher level constructs get added, or having to deal with compatibility between Java streams and Kotlin sequences, which don't build on top of Java ones. When Loom arrives, it will be a similar story, Java proper fibers and Kotlin co-routines and how they might interoperate. Nothing unique to Kotlin per se, all guest languages happen to have similar bumps. Calling Scala or Clojure from Java leads to similar lists. Then one is required to buy into JetBrains tooling for Kotlin, and get an additional license for Clion as means to have a graphical debugger for Kotlin/Native. There is an Eclipse plug-in, which is kind of 2nd tier, and none at all for Netbeans. With Java it is just ready set go, no matter which IDE, with just one IDE for Java and native, alongside mixed mode debugging (a feature JetBrains doesn't see a value supporting) and not all Java shops are into InteliJ idolatry.
mhh__ 7y ago
Everything has leapfrogged D, solely due to a lack of corporate sponsorship in my view. I genuinely think D and Rust are the only remotely interesting and/or good systems/non-functional languages around but lifes not a meritocracy.

by pdpi 7y ago

klez 7y ago

Not a datapoint by any means, but I think kotlin gained grounds mostly on Android, seeing the questions on stack overflow. When they ask about kotlin it's almost always in the context of Android, while Java questions seem to cover a wider range of fields and platforms. So, could it be more of a reaction to java-for-android being sub-optimal or the fact that Google suggests kotlin to new developers than Java itself being sub-optimal for the task?

pjmlp 7y ago

I think Kotlin's future is tied to Android's. Outside Android there are better options. On the JVM, just like any other platform, is safer to bet on the systems language of the platform than guest languages with extra debugging layers, tooling and their own wrappers for idiomatic code. Then Kotlin is trying to stretch too much, meaning that any portable Kotlin code cannot depend on any platform or needs multiple implementations. Finally Kotlin/Native has special semantics for handling data structures, as it tries to be Swift like, so special care is needed when the code is supposed to be used from Kotlin/Native as well.

ptx 7y ago
> Finally Kotlin/Native has special semantics for handling data structures, as it tries to be Swift like If you mean Swift's issue with having to use weak references to prevent cycles, Kotlin/Native doesn't do that – they have a cycle collector, so it should behave the same as Kotlin/JVM. It does have a different threading model though, where you can't share mutable structures between threads. Very recently they've introduced a "relaxed" mode that does allow it, but it's extremely experimental and sounds like it would be slow (since it can't defer updating reference counts). (Also, what are you referring to with "extra debugging layers, tooling and their own wrappers" for Kotlin on the JVM? I can use IntelliJ + Maven + Spring with either Java or Kotlin. I don't see any extra layers.)
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Yep, I mean the semantic model for data structures. Try to call idiomatic Kotlin code from Java and see how it looks like. Specially when co-routines and similar higher level constructs get added, or having to deal with compatibility between Java streams and Kotlin sequences, which don't build on top of Java ones. When Loom arrives, it will be a similar story, Java proper fibers and Kotlin co-routines and how they might interoperate. Nothing unique to Kotlin per se, all guest languages happen to have similar bumps. Calling Scala or Clojure from Java leads to similar lists. Then one is required to buy into JetBrains tooling for Kotlin, and get an additional license for Clion as means to have a graphical debugger for Kotlin/Native. There is an Eclipse plug-in, which is kind of 2nd tier, and none at all for Netbeans. With Java it is just ready set go, no matter which IDE, with just one IDE for Java and native, alongside mixed mode debugging (a feature JetBrains doesn't see a value supporting) and not all Java shops are into InteliJ idolatry.

mhh__ 7y ago

Everything has leapfrogged D, solely due to a lack of corporate sponsorship in my view. I genuinely think D and Rust are the only remotely interesting and/or good systems/non-functional languages around but lifes not a meritocracy.