4 ms·

The reason why extremism is having more trouble taking root in Europe is because there's less inequality there. Where inequality is highest, terrorism is highes

The reason why extremism is having more trouble taking root in Europe is because there's less inequality there. Where inequality is highest, terrorism is highest.

belltaco 7y ago
I don't see how it's related to inequality. I don't think any of these shooters were poor or went through poverty. For this incident the press showed pictures of a big single family home in suburban Dallas.
- eej2ya1K 7y ago
  There are other forms of inequality. For example, how many mass shooters are involuntarily celibate?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- phs318u 7y ago
  It's not necessarily about whether they are/were objectively poor. I believe, (part of) it is about the perception that others/outsiders are getting an unfair advantage at the cost of the tribe the shooter identifies with.
- mirimir 7y ago
  That's their parents' home, no? The US middle class is shrinking. And it's always dangerous to have lots of young men with no prospects. With no future worth living into. But seriously, mass shootings are just a sideshow. It's the political implications that are truly frightening.
  - belltaco 7y ago
    >That's their parents' home, no? Are there a lot of parents that won't allow their kin to live with them when the only other option is homelessness?
    - mlevental 7y ago
      yes
    - nfrbc 7y ago
      Kicking them out might not mean instant homelessness, they can get a job before leaving the house, crash on a friends couch. However they're at a much greater risk of becoming homeless.
lixtra 7y ago
I doubt it’s that one dimensional. One could point out that making things equal results in (edit) even more terror (as most former communists countries prove). Of course that reasoning would ignore the Scandinavian “exception“.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  It is actually that simple, because it is a fundamental part of social psychology. In primitive cultures, when one man amassed too much wealth, he'd give it away for two reasons: one: it brings him prestige as a benefactor, and two: it prevents disgruntled members from killing him. We're socially wired to keep things "fair", and when very unfair things happen, we have an almost religious feeling of righteous indignation. If someone is cheating society, we want to punish them and set things right. This is why there's a tendency towards lynch mobs, or their modern twitter equivalents. Equivalently, when someone feels excluded from the basic things he sees others enjoying freely (food, sex, shelter, leisure), he also feels this injustice, and will want to lash out, punish, and bring justice back to his society. If he's excluded for long enough, or to an extreme enough degree, he'll stop associating himself with that society, and possibly even consider replacing it with a better one. Of course, not everyone who feels the bad end of inequality is going to take up a gun and start shooting, but the less emotionally stable you are from your circumstances, the greater the risk. These "manifests" are a last-ditch effort to be listened to, respected, and included. I'm not talking about listening to whatever weird bullshit they're spouting; I'm talking about listening to their pain and humanity. The sad part is that many justice systems are designed to exclude those convicted of a crime, thus excluding the most vulnerable, who need inclusion the most. It's one reason why you have such high recidivism rates in societies with more vengeful justice systems. Inequality is a form of exclusion, and we're wired to fight it. Fighting terrorism is fighting the symptom rather than the cause. The harder you hit them, the harder they fight back, because they've got nothing left to lose that they care about, and they have "righteousness" on their side.
  - patientplatypus 7y ago
    That is the most succinct well thought out reasoning on this phenomenon I have ever read. I wish there was a way to stop this rather than have "rich people should share", because that just seems really unlikely :<
preommr 7y ago
This probably won't be an unpopular view, but I really think its culture and specifically things like news media. Watching FOX and even CNN exacerbates me in a way that watching things like the BBC don't. The standards for journalism and discourse are incredibly different. And its a feedback loop because I don't just blame the media, I blame the people that feed the media and increase the race for ratings and fear mongering.
- yifanl 7y ago
  I agree to a point, but surely the news media can't be where all the signal is coming from, there's too many forums on the internet (like the chans, and now social media sites) with too many users.
_iyig 7y ago
By what measure has extremism failed to take root in Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Stockholm_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Stockholm_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Strasbourg_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Strasbourg_attack If you meant nativist extremism, I suspect multi-party democracies allow something of a safety valve. AfD and Brexit Party voters can still feel like they’re being heard while identifying as less extreme than NDP or BNP. In the American two-party system, one side is always painting the other as their most extreme example with no credible third parties for contrast, and indeed extremists do sometimes rise to prominence from within either party.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Also: The Utøya massacre / bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utøya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utøya Jo Cox UK MP assassination: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/world/europe/jo-cox-british-mp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/world/europe/jo-cox-briti... UK right-wing riots: https://www.mediamatters.org/sean-hannity/right-wing-media-use-uk-riots-fearmonger-and-attack-left https://www.mediamatters.org/sean-hannity/right-wing-media-u... Attacks on immigrant vendors in Greece: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-crisis-dawn/special-report-greeces-far-right-party-goes-on-the-offensive-idUSBRE8AB09F20121112 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-crisis-dawn/specia... Dresden anti-islamist marches: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/15/dresden-police-pegida-germany-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/15/dresden-police...
  - Nursie 7y ago
    That's the first time I've ever seen the 2011 riots in London called "Right Wing". I was in London at the time. They were sparked by the police killing of a drug dealer, rightly or wrongly, and were more chaotic and violent than any sort of political. Whatever the reaction was in the US, that article just calls it wrong. --edit-- I think it might be you that's read it wrong, the article is just about US right wing media interests using the London riots to further their political goals in the US. You might want to take that link off your list, it doesn't support your argument.
euroPoor 7y ago
Yeah, I'm going to need proof on that. Political extremism is, like, a European invention. How about this https://taz.de/taz-Recherche-auf-Englisch/!5558072/ https://taz.de/taz-Recherche-auf-Englisch/!5558072/ or this https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-nazi-missile.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-na... ?
yyyk 7y ago
Yes and no. It really depends. Many ME terrorists are actually relatively wealthy (Bin Laden being the most famous example), and historically revolutions occur more from a rising middle class rather than from the lowest classes. Inequality can play a role - but many times other factors are far more important.

The reason why extremism is having more trouble taking root in Europe is because there's less inequality there. Where inequality is highest, terrorism is highest.

belltaco 7y ago

I don't see how it's related to inequality. I don't think any of these shooters were poor or went through poverty. For this incident the press showed pictures of a big single family home in suburban Dallas.

eej2ya1K 7y ago
There are other forms of inequality. For example, how many mass shooters are involuntarily celibate?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
phs318u 7y ago
It's not necessarily about whether they are/were objectively poor. I believe, (part of) it is about the perception that others/outsiders are getting an unfair advantage at the cost of the tribe the shooter identifies with.
mirimir 7y ago
That's their parents' home, no? The US middle class is shrinking. And it's always dangerous to have lots of young men with no prospects. With no future worth living into. But seriously, mass shootings are just a sideshow. It's the political implications that are truly frightening.
- belltaco 7y ago
  >That's their parents' home, no? Are there a lot of parents that won't allow their kin to live with them when the only other option is homelessness?
  - mlevental 7y ago
    yes
  - nfrbc 7y ago
    Kicking them out might not mean instant homelessness, they can get a job before leaving the house, crash on a friends couch. However they're at a much greater risk of becoming homeless.

lixtra 7y ago

I doubt it’s that one dimensional. One could point out that making things equal results in (edit) even more terror (as most former communists countries prove). Of course that reasoning would ignore the Scandinavian “exception“.

kstenerud 7y ago
It is actually that simple, because it is a fundamental part of social psychology. In primitive cultures, when one man amassed too much wealth, he'd give it away for two reasons: one: it brings him prestige as a benefactor, and two: it prevents disgruntled members from killing him. We're socially wired to keep things "fair", and when very unfair things happen, we have an almost religious feeling of righteous indignation. If someone is cheating society, we want to punish them and set things right. This is why there's a tendency towards lynch mobs, or their modern twitter equivalents. Equivalently, when someone feels excluded from the basic things he sees others enjoying freely (food, sex, shelter, leisure), he also feels this injustice, and will want to lash out, punish, and bring justice back to his society. If he's excluded for long enough, or to an extreme enough degree, he'll stop associating himself with that society, and possibly even consider replacing it with a better one. Of course, not everyone who feels the bad end of inequality is going to take up a gun and start shooting, but the less emotionally stable you are from your circumstances, the greater the risk. These "manifests" are a last-ditch effort to be listened to, respected, and included. I'm not talking about listening to whatever weird bullshit they're spouting; I'm talking about listening to their pain and humanity. The sad part is that many justice systems are designed to exclude those convicted of a crime, thus excluding the most vulnerable, who need inclusion the most. It's one reason why you have such high recidivism rates in societies with more vengeful justice systems. Inequality is a form of exclusion, and we're wired to fight it. Fighting terrorism is fighting the symptom rather than the cause. The harder you hit them, the harder they fight back, because they've got nothing left to lose that they care about, and they have "righteousness" on their side.
- patientplatypus 7y ago
  That is the most succinct well thought out reasoning on this phenomenon I have ever read. I wish there was a way to stop this rather than have "rich people should share", because that just seems really unlikely :<

preommr 7y ago

This probably won't be an unpopular view, but I really think its culture and specifically things like news media. Watching FOX and even CNN exacerbates me in a way that watching things like the BBC don't. The standards for journalism and discourse are incredibly different. And its a feedback loop because I don't just blame the media, I blame the people that feed the media and increase the race for ratings and fear mongering.

yifanl 7y ago
I agree to a point, but surely the news media can't be where all the signal is coming from, there's too many forums on the internet (like the chans, and now social media sites) with too many users.

_iyig 7y ago

By what measure has extremism failed to take root in Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_2015_Paris_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Berlin_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Arena_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Stockholm_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Stockholm_truck_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Strasbourg_attack https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Strasbourg_attack If you meant nativist extremism, I suspect multi-party democracies allow something of a safety valve. AfD and Brexit Party voters can still feel like they’re being heard while identifying as less extreme than NDP or BNP. In the American two-party system, one side is always painting the other as their most extreme example with no credible third parties for contrast, and indeed extremists do sometimes rise to prominence from within either party.

dredmorbius 7y ago
Also: The Utøya massacre / bombing https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utøya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utøya Jo Cox UK MP assassination: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/world/europe/jo-cox-british-mp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/world/europe/jo-cox-briti... UK right-wing riots: https://www.mediamatters.org/sean-hannity/right-wing-media-use-uk-riots-fearmonger-and-attack-left https://www.mediamatters.org/sean-hannity/right-wing-media-u... Attacks on immigrant vendors in Greece: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-crisis-dawn/special-report-greeces-far-right-party-goes-on-the-offensive-idUSBRE8AB09F20121112 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-greece-crisis-dawn/specia... Dresden anti-islamist marches: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/15/dresden-police-pegida-germany-far-right https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/15/dresden-police...
- Nursie 7y ago
  That's the first time I've ever seen the 2011 riots in London called "Right Wing". I was in London at the time. They were sparked by the police killing of a drug dealer, rightly or wrongly, and were more chaotic and violent than any sort of political. Whatever the reaction was in the US, that article just calls it wrong. --edit-- I think it might be you that's read it wrong, the article is just about US right wing media interests using the London riots to further their political goals in the US. You might want to take that link off your list, it doesn't support your argument.

euroPoor 7y ago

Yeah, I'm going to need proof on that. Political extremism is, like, a European invention. How about this https://taz.de/taz-Recherche-auf-Englisch/!5558072/ https://taz.de/taz-Recherche-auf-Englisch/!5558072/ or this https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-nazi-missile.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/world/europe/italy-neo-na... ?

yyyk 7y ago

Yes and no. It really depends. Many ME terrorists are actually relatively wealthy (Bin Laden being the most famous example), and historically revolutions occur more from a rising middle class rather than from the lowest classes. Inequality can play a role - but many times other factors are far more important.