6 ms·

"the materials it took to manufacture the frame, wheels and battery" How is this worse than a moped? Silly article.

by GoToRO 7y ago

cameldrv 7y ago
The scooters have very poor durability. They're lasting on the order of 100-200 miles in rental fleets. The study actually underestimates this effect and assumes that they last about 5x longer than they empirically do. Bird and the scooter manufacturers are trying to address this by making beefier scooters that don't fold with bigger batteries, but the abuse they take in a dockless rental fleet and from having such small wheels make durability a big challenge. A moped typically lasts 10,000-100,000 miles, so even though it's much heavier, the energy and cost are amortized over a far longer period.
- polskibus 7y ago
  That is very interesting. Do you have a reference on the 100-200miles lifespan?
  - dahfizz 7y ago
    https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
- skummetmaelk 7y ago
  There is no way the average lifespan is only 100-200 miles. That would make the cost per mile 2-3 dollars which is completely unrealistic.
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-... “The average vehicle went 163.2 miles over 92 trips during its lifetime” https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird-seeks-300m-in-new-funds https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird... They lost $100 million on 40 million in revenue.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - meesles 7y ago
    No, because you're assuming a zero-sum game or even profits. It's widely known that these e-scooter companies are eating a ton of losses right now as they figure things out.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    > That would make the cost per mile 2-3 dollars which is completely unrealistic. That's why you spend billions of dollars of VC money.
  - munificent 7y ago
    I don't know about scooters, but I'm in a city with a lot of Lime bikes. I spent a few weeks commuting to work using them and each day was a roll of the dice to see if the bike I got was going to be functional. I don't know what's wrong with some people but apparently "drive it like you stole it" also applies to "rented it". Based on how a lot of those bikes look—and this is while Lime is actively maintaining and culling the fleet and—it seems many users end their ride by leaping off the bikes in mid sprint and letting it crash into whatever, sometimes punctuated with an angry kick or maybe smearing a little dirt and food into the seat and basket. It's completely careless use that raises the ecological and economic price of these ride shares. If people were less shitty, they'd be way better in every respect.
  - executive 7y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbOvFt_Gwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbOvFt_Gwo
  - mc32 7y ago
    There’ve been some studies that align with the statement by OP [1]. Looks like lifecycle of the studied fleet was under 200 miles and fewer than 30 days. People really mistreat them and beat them up. [1]https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
  - aussiegreenie 7y ago
    Most rental electric scooters are VERY abused. One Chinese bike rental company lost its entire fleet in about a week, 10,000 bikes lost in less than 10 days.
- jgmjgm 7y ago
  That's the game of these companies. Scale first and figure out all of the problems. Of course, there will be waste as that gets sorted out but there is economic incentive to reduce waste (as long as it is a cost). More broadly, this is how capitalism works. Capital is allocated relatively efficiently but there is a lot of failure and waste inherent in the competitive process.
- GoToRO 7y ago
  I have one that has 1000 miles and it looks like new. And just because they put under engineered scooters on the streets doesn't mean they are more polluting than a regular moped.

"the materials it took to manufacture the frame, wheels and battery" How is this worse than a moped? Silly article.

by GoToRO 7y ago

"the materials it took to manufacture the frame, wheels and battery" How is this worse than a moped? Silly article.

The scooters have very poor durability. They're lasting on the order of 100-200 miles in rental fleets. The study actually underestimates this effect and assumes that they last about 5x longer than they empirically do. Bird and the scooter manufacturers are trying to address this by making beefier scooters that don't fold with bigger batteries, but the abuse they take in a dockless rental fleet and from having such small wheels make durability a big challenge. A moped typically lasts 10,000-100,000 miles, so even though it's much heavier, the energy and cost are amortized over a far longer period.

polskibus 7y ago
That is very interesting. Do you have a reference on the 100-200miles lifespan?
- dahfizz 7y ago
  https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
skummetmaelk 7y ago
There is no way the average lifespan is only 100-200 miles. That would make the cost per mile 2-3 dollars which is completely unrealistic.
- cameldrv 7y ago
  https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-... “The average vehicle went 163.2 miles over 92 trips during its lifetime” https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird-seeks-300m-in-new-funds https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird... They lost $100 million on 40 million in revenue.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- meesles 7y ago
  No, because you're assuming a zero-sum game or even profits. It's widely known that these e-scooter companies are eating a ton of losses right now as they figure things out.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  > That would make the cost per mile 2-3 dollars which is completely unrealistic. That's why you spend billions of dollars of VC money.
- munificent 7y ago
  I don't know about scooters, but I'm in a city with a lot of Lime bikes. I spent a few weeks commuting to work using them and each day was a roll of the dice to see if the bike I got was going to be functional. I don't know what's wrong with some people but apparently "drive it like you stole it" also applies to "rented it". Based on how a lot of those bikes look—and this is while Lime is actively maintaining and culling the fleet and—it seems many users end their ride by leaping off the bikes in mid sprint and letting it crash into whatever, sometimes punctuated with an angry kick or maybe smearing a little dirt and food into the seat and basket. It's completely careless use that raises the ecological and economic price of these ride shares. If people were less shitty, they'd be way better in every respect.
- executive 7y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbOvFt_Gwo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbOvFt_Gwo
- mc32 7y ago
  There’ve been some studies that align with the statement by OP [1]. Looks like lifecycle of the studied fleet was under 200 miles and fewer than 30 days. People really mistreat them and beat them up. [1]https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
- aussiegreenie 7y ago
  Most rental electric scooters are VERY abused. One Chinese bike rental company lost its entire fleet in about a week, 10,000 bikes lost in less than 10 days.
jgmjgm 7y ago
That's the game of these companies. Scale first and figure out all of the problems. Of course, there will be waste as that gets sorted out but there is economic incentive to reduce waste (as long as it is a cost). More broadly, this is how capitalism works. Capital is allocated relatively efficiently but there is a lot of failure and waste inherent in the competitive process.
GoToRO 7y ago
I have one that has 1000 miles and it looks like new. And just because they put under engineered scooters on the streets doesn't mean they are more polluting than a regular moped.