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>it’s vegetable glycerin and/or propylene glycol Both of which have a long record of safety as an inhaled vapor. They're the standard ingredients in theatrical

>it’s vegetable glycerin and/or propylene glycol Both of which have a long record of safety as an inhaled vapor. They're the standard ingredients in theatrical fog machines, so have been investigated in detail by occupational health and safety agencies; the worst identified risks are minor respiratory irritation. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1990-0355-2449.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1990-0355-2449.pd... >Some flavourings can be seriously bad, look up popcorn lungs. All reputable manufacturers removed diacetyl from their products years ago, as soon as the risk came to the attention of the industry. Popcorn lung is extremely rare, with only one known case involving non-occupational exposure. http://blog.mtbakervapor.com/diacetyl/ http://blog.mtbakervapor.com/diacetyl/

Retric 7y ago
Theatrical fog machines are not assumed to be safe daily for 50+ years. Many things are harmful, but not obvious at low doses. People used to use lead as a sweetener. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate The current consensus is that vaping is harmful. https://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-e-cigarettes-on-lung.html https://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-e-... However, it’s not really been around long enough for long term effects to be obvious.
- robocat 7y ago
  > Theatrical fog machines are not assumed to be safe daily for 50+ years. Occupational hazards (chronic exposure) might be expected to show something if it had serious long term effects. > However, it’s not really been around long enough for long term effects Long term effects often have early outliers (the tail of the graph leading up to a long term problem) - we would likely be seeing something measurable already if there were a very serious problem. And for many users, it's a very good bet that vaping is safer than long term smoking.
  - Retric 7y ago
    Vaping represents a significant increase in nicotine use for young people. If it was limited to 40+ year old lifetime smokers, then that would be different.
    - robocat 7y ago
      So what? Do we stop "young" people from eating junk food or being targeted by advertising? The risks of vaping are strongly indicated to be far less than many other recreational activities young people do (drinking and taking random drugs being one obvious thing I see in my community, that seems to still be on the increase). And if there are extra vapers, but fewer smokers, then it seems probable everyone is way better off. Weigh a small unknown risk against a large known risk. Out of interest: do vapers show the same physical signs of damage as smokers? Someone who smokes significantly for say two years has clearly visible changes to their skin, and often obvious indicators of unhealthy lungs: strong indicators of long term damage effects. I don't know well enough any people that have only ever vaped for me to have a inkling about the visible side-effects of vaping (to use as a proxy for making a guess at long term damage compared to smoking).
      - Retric 7y ago
        > extra vapers, but fewer smokers That does not seem to follow. Based on existing trends you just get extra vapers without fewer young people smoking. In terms of health issues for young teenagers vaping is fairly high on the list largely due to simple numbers. If we need to have young teens taking nicotine, why not the patch or gum which seem to be safer.
- perlpimp 7y ago
  "E-cigarettes produce a number of dangerous chemicals including acetaldehyde" - just like alcohol and hangover, this is metabolite of alcohol. 20% of becomes acetaldehyde. for some reason I don't get hangover from vaping, though I did have pretty horrible feeling smoking. Probably worse than occasional hangover.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  > Theatrical fog machines are not assumed to be safe daily for 50+ years. The first link in my comment is a report on precisely that - workplace health and safety for theatrical performers and technicians who spend every day in close proximity to high-volume fog machines. >The current consensus is that vaping is harmful. There are undoubtedly some harms associated with vaping (nicotine is associated with a somewhat elevated risk of cardiovascular disease), but the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that it is vastly safer than smoking, which is the most pertinent point of comparison. I haven't thoroughly reviewed the references in your linked article, but one issue leaps out at first glance. The article states "E-cigarettes also contain acrolein, a herbicide primarily used to kill weeds", which is a substantial misrepresentation of the facts. Acrolein is used in some niche applications as an aquatic herbicide, but it is a naturally-occuring byproduct of the thermal decomposition of glycerol and is found in most fried foods. The acrolein content of e-cigarette vapour is far lower than cigarette smoke, and can be reduced to negligible levels through the use of a temperature-controlled vaping device. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/733022/Ecigarettes_an_evidence_update_A_report_commissioned_by_Public_Health_England_FINAL.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9s90850c https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9s90850c
  - Retric 7y ago
    “Thirty-seven symptomatic and 68 non-symptomatic performers made up the Phase II study population of 105 performers.” This is at levels that where considered safe at the time. So, your link demonstrates harm from these smoke machines and recommends limited exposure mentioning a range of respiratory issues. The only thing they say is not linked is Asthmatic symptoms.

Retric 7y ago

Theatrical fog machines are not assumed to be safe daily for 50+ years. Many things are harmful, but not obvious at low doses. People used to use lead as a sweetener. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate The current consensus is that vaping is harmful. https://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-e-cigarettes-on-lung.html https://www.lung.org/stop-smoking/smoking-facts/impact-of-e-... However, it’s not really been around long enough for long term effects to be obvious.

robocat 7y ago
> Theatrical fog machines are not assumed to be safe daily for 50+ years. Occupational hazards (chronic exposure) might be expected to show something if it had serious long term effects. > However, it’s not really been around long enough for long term effects Long term effects often have early outliers (the tail of the graph leading up to a long term problem) - we would likely be seeing something measurable already if there were a very serious problem. And for many users, it's a very good bet that vaping is safer than long term smoking.
- Retric 7y ago
  Vaping represents a significant increase in nicotine use for young people. If it was limited to 40+ year old lifetime smokers, then that would be different.
  - robocat 7y ago
    So what? Do we stop "young" people from eating junk food or being targeted by advertising? The risks of vaping are strongly indicated to be far less than many other recreational activities young people do (drinking and taking random drugs being one obvious thing I see in my community, that seems to still be on the increase). And if there are extra vapers, but fewer smokers, then it seems probable everyone is way better off. Weigh a small unknown risk against a large known risk. Out of interest: do vapers show the same physical signs of damage as smokers? Someone who smokes significantly for say two years has clearly visible changes to their skin, and often obvious indicators of unhealthy lungs: strong indicators of long term damage effects. I don't know well enough any people that have only ever vaped for me to have a inkling about the visible side-effects of vaping (to use as a proxy for making a guess at long term damage compared to smoking).
    - Retric 7y ago
      > extra vapers, but fewer smokers That does not seem to follow. Based on existing trends you just get extra vapers without fewer young people smoking. In terms of health issues for young teenagers vaping is fairly high on the list largely due to simple numbers. If we need to have young teens taking nicotine, why not the patch or gum which seem to be safer.
perlpimp 7y ago
"E-cigarettes produce a number of dangerous chemicals including acetaldehyde" - just like alcohol and hangover, this is metabolite of alcohol. 20% of becomes acetaldehyde. for some reason I don't get hangover from vaping, though I did have pretty horrible feeling smoking. Probably worse than occasional hangover.
jdietrich 7y ago
> Theatrical fog machines are not assumed to be safe daily for 50+ years. The first link in my comment is a report on precisely that - workplace health and safety for theatrical performers and technicians who spend every day in close proximity to high-volume fog machines. >The current consensus is that vaping is harmful. There are undoubtedly some harms associated with vaping (nicotine is associated with a somewhat elevated risk of cardiovascular disease), but the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that it is vastly safer than smoking, which is the most pertinent point of comparison. I haven't thoroughly reviewed the references in your linked article, but one issue leaps out at first glance. The article states "E-cigarettes also contain acrolein, a herbicide primarily used to kill weeds", which is a substantial misrepresentation of the facts. Acrolein is used in some niche applications as an aquatic herbicide, but it is a naturally-occuring byproduct of the thermal decomposition of glycerol and is found in most fried foods. The acrolein content of e-cigarette vapour is far lower than cigarette smoke, and can be reduced to negligible levels through the use of a temperature-controlled vaping device. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/733022/Ecigarettes_an_evidence_update_A_report_commissioned_by_Public_Health_England_FINAL.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9s90850c https://escholarship.org/uc/item/9s90850c
- Retric 7y ago
  “Thirty-seven symptomatic and 68 non-symptomatic performers made up the Phase II study population of 105 performers.” This is at levels that where considered safe at the time. So, your link demonstrates harm from these smoke machines and recommends limited exposure mentioning a range of respiratory issues. The only thing they say is not linked is Asthmatic symptoms.