5 ms·

Logically, yes... But an acquaintance with Canadian relatives told me he knows a middle aged single man that was denied a knee replacement he needed because of

by ta0987 7y ago

Logically, yes... But an acquaintance with Canadian relatives told me he knows a middle aged single man that was denied a knee replacement he needed because of these trade-offs. Left with decades to live, partially disabled, because: "Old? No family? Well fuck that guy then."

hestipod 7y ago
Every time this discussion comes up people tell stories of "things they heard" but I hear very little first hand experience that validates them. I have had discussions in the past with my very right wing relatives about social healthcare and quality of life abroad (where I have lived and they have not) and they always had a pocket full of stories they heard from someone that undid anything I said in their minds. A more recent one was a supposed tale from a Danish immigrant to the USA who had told them how terrible the quality of life is in Copenhagen (a city while not perfect as none are, that is consistently rated as one of the highest qualities of life in the world) and how America is objectively better in every way which validated their world view. If people cannot even be realistic about the life on the ground...nothing ever changes.
- robocat 7y ago
  New Zealander here, and I will speak about cases I have direct experience of (and project a little based on what I've read in media). Firstly, our social healthcare is actually pretty good for emergency procedures. But there is only so much money budgeted per year for healthcare, and everyone in need competes for that limited pool, so there is a variety of ways care can be delayed or denied. "Elective" procedures like hip and knee replacements can have long delays (queues) and seemingly odd requirements. One friend was "too" young: they had to wait for years in severe pain because they "shouldn't" need their hip replaced yet. Another acquantance had a record of hurting their knee as a young child: so they were not covered by ACC for knee replacement even though it was a ridiculous excuse in circumstances. Once a procedure is approved, you get reasonable treatment, and it is free. There is a certain amount of gaming of the system - if you can find a sympathetic specialist you can jump the queue a bit. However that is a zero sum game, and it benefits those with time, intelligence and contacts (and screws some minorities). Pharmac has a yearly government budget, and they choose which treatments can be afforded. We do the same with roading - cost benefit analysis is done for all roadworks and the best get funded until the fixed budget is met (small country, so one main roading department). It is interesting that our two biggest healthcare insurers (maybe covering 80% of private insurance) are non-profit co-operatives: all premiums are either paid out in care or pay administration overhead. I think overhead works out to be about 10%. Fantastic system: pay premiums and don't get sick is winning, getting payouts is often actually losing. It's like a socialist system for everyone that has some disposable income. Private healthcare premiums are extremely cheap compared to the US e.g. "the premium for a member aged 0-21 years on our most popular plan, Wellbeing Two, is just $9 a week", and "Pay for 2 kids, the rest are free*"; you can see what is covered by that plan here: https://www.southerncross.co.nz/Portals/0/Society/EFulfillment/Product/Comparision_chart.pdf https://www.southerncross.co.nz/Portals/0/Society/EFulfillme...
- jki275 7y ago
  So the fact you haven't heard any anecdotes means other people's experiences are invalid?
- ta0987 7y ago
  I sympathize, that's exactly what I used to assume. That there are outliers and horror stories for every system and in isolation the stories are inconclusive. Then I met this guy, in person, whose actual Canadian relatives went through this shit. Then it became real. Obviously my internet comment is not the same experience for you, being one step removed and coming from an Internet Random. And yet, having had the experience relatively recently I decided to share.
  - hestipod 7y ago
    I apologize if it seemed like a personal jab. I am admittedly sensitive to the issue given my experiences on both sides of the proverbial exam table in the American system. Every time I try and discuss the issue with people in my area they lead with a tale about how terrible it is elsewhere and it put up a wall preventing any discussion. Rather than talking about what can work they shut it down right off the same as they do with anything they don't want to deal with...going right to the failures or abuses. It is disheartening to see anyone in any system suffer. I am quite sure if I was someone suffering in your example's case it would be hard not to be angry at the system. When it's you hurting you don't care so much if a system if overall better, better for others, or was even better for you 99/100 times thus far, prevents a bigger problem later etc...you just want to stop hurting.

by ta0987 7y ago

hestipod 7y ago

Every time this discussion comes up people tell stories of "things they heard" but I hear very little first hand experience that validates them. I have had discussions in the past with my very right wing relatives about social healthcare and quality of life abroad (where I have lived and they have not) and they always had a pocket full of stories they heard from someone that undid anything I said in their minds. A more recent one was a supposed tale from a Danish immigrant to the USA who had told them how terrible the quality of life is in Copenhagen (a city while not perfect as none are, that is consistently rated as one of the highest qualities of life in the world) and how America is objectively better in every way which validated their world view. If people cannot even be realistic about the life on the ground...nothing ever changes.

robocat 7y ago
New Zealander here, and I will speak about cases I have direct experience of (and project a little based on what I've read in media). Firstly, our social healthcare is actually pretty good for emergency procedures. But there is only so much money budgeted per year for healthcare, and everyone in need competes for that limited pool, so there is a variety of ways care can be delayed or denied. "Elective" procedures like hip and knee replacements can have long delays (queues) and seemingly odd requirements. One friend was "too" young: they had to wait for years in severe pain because they "shouldn't" need their hip replaced yet. Another acquantance had a record of hurting their knee as a young child: so they were not covered by ACC for knee replacement even though it was a ridiculous excuse in circumstances. Once a procedure is approved, you get reasonable treatment, and it is free. There is a certain amount of gaming of the system - if you can find a sympathetic specialist you can jump the queue a bit. However that is a zero sum game, and it benefits those with time, intelligence and contacts (and screws some minorities). Pharmac has a yearly government budget, and they choose which treatments can be afforded. We do the same with roading - cost benefit analysis is done for all roadworks and the best get funded until the fixed budget is met (small country, so one main roading department). It is interesting that our two biggest healthcare insurers (maybe covering 80% of private insurance) are non-profit co-operatives: all premiums are either paid out in care or pay administration overhead. I think overhead works out to be about 10%. Fantastic system: pay premiums and don't get sick is winning, getting payouts is often actually losing. It's like a socialist system for everyone that has some disposable income. Private healthcare premiums are extremely cheap compared to the US e.g. "the premium for a member aged 0-21 years on our most popular plan, Wellbeing Two, is just $9 a week", and "Pay for 2 kids, the rest are free*"; you can see what is covered by that plan here: https://www.southerncross.co.nz/Portals/0/Society/EFulfillment/Product/Comparision_chart.pdf https://www.southerncross.co.nz/Portals/0/Society/EFulfillme...
jki275 7y ago
So the fact you haven't heard any anecdotes means other people's experiences are invalid?
ta0987 7y ago
I sympathize, that's exactly what I used to assume. That there are outliers and horror stories for every system and in isolation the stories are inconclusive. Then I met this guy, in person, whose actual Canadian relatives went through this shit. Then it became real. Obviously my internet comment is not the same experience for you, being one step removed and coming from an Internet Random. And yet, having had the experience relatively recently I decided to share.
- hestipod 7y ago
  I apologize if it seemed like a personal jab. I am admittedly sensitive to the issue given my experiences on both sides of the proverbial exam table in the American system. Every time I try and discuss the issue with people in my area they lead with a tale about how terrible it is elsewhere and it put up a wall preventing any discussion. Rather than talking about what can work they shut it down right off the same as they do with anything they don't want to deal with...going right to the failures or abuses. It is disheartening to see anyone in any system suffer. I am quite sure if I was someone suffering in your example's case it would be hard not to be angry at the system. When it's you hurting you don't care so much if a system if overall better, better for others, or was even better for you 99/100 times thus far, prevents a bigger problem later etc...you just want to stop hurting.