7 ms·

Electric scooters aren't as eco-friendly as they seem, study finds

34 points by logifail 7y ago

michaelbuckbee 7y ago
"...traveling by scooter produces more greenhouse gas emissions per mile than traveling by bus, bicycle, moped or on foot" I can't find the source study - but even so I'd have to see some caveats on bus + moped (2 cycle are brutal pollution wise). I know there's a lot of hate for e-scooters, but I really like them. They're a nice transportation option that supplants taking uber/lyft in many cases and definitely an improvement over cars.
- speg 7y ago
  It looks like the study is linked? https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8 https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8 Also, it includes the scooter company driving around at the end of the day to pick up all the scooters. Obviously not applicable if you are using your own personal scooter.
- nesadi 7y ago
  There are situations where I've considered using an e-scooter because existing infrastructure is insufficient or just plain unreliable. If a bus or two or three are cancelled and I'm really frustrated, even a car seems like a great solution, regardless of environmental cost. E-scooters seem like a decent alternative (depending on how reliable and environmentally friendly they actually are). I'd even consider buying my own, but it seems Germany is lagging behind in allowing e-scooters in public (the only two models that are purchasable that are also street legal cost 2000+ Euros).
- CalRobert 7y ago
  And using a scooter instead of a car means traveling far fewer miles and covering far fewer square miles of your land in car parks, so other people don't have to travel as far either.
algaeontoast 7y ago
Just buy your own e-scooter or electric unicycle. Solves most of these issues and takes stress off of existing public transit (not to mention personal electric transit is almost always faster than public transit during rush-hour).
- logifail 7y ago
  > Just buy your own e-scooter or electric unicycle ...or stick with either a (kick) scooter or standard bicycle? Definitely better for the environment and almost certainly better for your health, too.
  - perlpimp 7y ago
    works if you have a shower and a change of clothes at work and soap and towel etc. its a logistical nightmare. i have both but bicycle is mostly a recreational vehicle
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    It might be better for your health, or it might be totally unrealistic given the state of your health.
  - algaeontoast 7y ago
    Unless you want to show up to work a sweaty mess. I have a bike I ride for exercise as well, but commuting really only makes sense on an electric scoot / EUC.
- nickserv 7y ago
  They're also useful for 'last km' transport, like getting to and from the train station. The smaller ones can also be taken on the bus or subway.
  - alistairSH 7y ago
GoToRO 7y ago
"the materials it took to manufacture the frame, wheels and battery" How is this worse than a moped? Silly article.
- cameldrv 7y ago
  The scooters have very poor durability. They're lasting on the order of 100-200 miles in rental fleets. The study actually underestimates this effect and assumes that they last about 5x longer than they empirically do. Bird and the scooter manufacturers are trying to address this by making beefier scooters that don't fold with bigger batteries, but the abuse they take in a dockless rental fleet and from having such small wheels make durability a big challenge. A moped typically lasts 10,000-100,000 miles, so even though it's much heavier, the energy and cost are amortized over a far longer period.
  - polskibus 7y ago
    That is very interesting. Do you have a reference on the 100-200miles lifespan?
    - dahfizz 7y ago
      https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
  - skummetmaelk 7y ago
    There is no way the average lifespan is only 100-200 miles. That would make the cost per mile 2-3 dollars which is completely unrealistic.
    - cameldrv 7y ago
      https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-... “The average vehicle went 163.2 miles over 92 trips during its lifetime” https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird-seeks-300m-in-new-funds https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird... They lost $100 million on 40 million in revenue.
megaremote 7y ago
Still 1000x better than cars, and anything that gets people out of their cars is great.
- Retric 7y ago
  Expect you many need to literally manufacture 1,500x as many scooters. ‘The average vehicle went 163.2 miles over 92 trips during its lifetime’ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha... So, odd as it may seem, electric cars may be better for the environment.
  - kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
    The average bicycle isn't any better. Huffy knew this and purposely designed their bikes for a lifetime of 50 miles. We should get rid of them too.
    - navigatesol 7y ago
      How exactly does one go about this? Is it built from paper? Has Silicon Valley actually convinced themselves that bicycles are bad for the environment now?
    - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
      I’ve never seen any bikes that has a lifetime of 50 miles. But I’m all for anti-planned obsolescence laws. Maybe just forcing manufacturers to put the expected life of the device next to it would help ?
  - kristo 7y ago
    This idea fails to account for MANY car externalities, like the effects of paving the roads and parking lots they need, and the massive environmental opportunity cost associated with those spaces. Scooters are net positive if they get any number of people out of cars. Yes they're worse than bikes, but nobody was really saying they were better.
jdietrich 7y ago
Shared electric scooters are undoubtedly pretty damned dirty, due to the very short working life of the scooter and the fuel use in collecting and returning the scooters. Owning an electric scooter looks pretty damned clean - ~200kg/CO2e to manufacture the scooter, plus 0 - 300g to generate enough electricity to charge the battery.
melling 7y ago
Prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597711 Something I pointed out yesterday is that these articles are focusing on greenhouse gases. We still have a major pollution problem in large cities. Reducing this alone makes scooters worth it, IMHO.
sebringj 7y ago
Cars/bikes etc don't have carbon footprints to manufacture? This is an idiotic comparison.
- jkoudys 7y ago
  It's asinine. I might as well include the CO2 footprint of the wear on your shoes and pants from walking.
  - gamblor956 7y ago
    You could, if you wanted an ultra-detailed comparison. And scooters would still be found wanting. Pants and shoes can survive a few months of daily wear. With proper care, even cheapo stuff from Target/Walmart can last for years. Right now, Bird and its competitors are struggling to get six months of lifespan out of scooters used an average of just 3 times a day.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  Unless you're buying some really crappy cars or bikes, they generally last for several years or decades, compared to the estimated month-6 months lifespan of e-scooters. (Bird has newer scooters coming out that are supposed to last almost a year. Almost a year. For an average of 3 rides a day.) When you're arguing that your mode of transport is green but it only lasts a few weeks with relatively sparse usage, then the manufacturing carbon footprint is absolutely relevant. When the mode of transport lasts for decades and the manufacturing footprint is spread out amongst millions of others vehicles, the manufacturing footprint isn't very relevant.
  - sebringj 7y ago
    You have a very good and valid point that I completely missed as I was fooled by the category it resides in.
glemmaPaul 7y ago
What are your guys thoughts on Revel, the electric moped that you can use in Brooklyn. They seem to be more robust, thus potentially stay on the road longer? https://gorevel.com/new-york/ https://gorevel.com/new-york/
pbiggar 7y ago
I'd love to see cities roll out docks for the scooters, where they could charge while parked.

34 points by logifail 7y ago

"...traveling by scooter produces more greenhouse gas emissions per mile than traveling by bus, bicycle, moped or on foot" I can't find the source study - but even so I'd have to see some caveats on bus + moped (2 cycle are brutal pollution wise). I know there's a lot of hate for e-scooters, but I really like them. They're a nice transportation option that supplants taking uber/lyft in many cases and definitely an improvement over cars.

speg 7y ago
It looks like the study is linked? https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8 https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab2da8 Also, it includes the scooter company driving around at the end of the day to pick up all the scooters. Obviously not applicable if you are using your own personal scooter.
nesadi 7y ago
There are situations where I've considered using an e-scooter because existing infrastructure is insufficient or just plain unreliable. If a bus or two or three are cancelled and I'm really frustrated, even a car seems like a great solution, regardless of environmental cost. E-scooters seem like a decent alternative (depending on how reliable and environmentally friendly they actually are). I'd even consider buying my own, but it seems Germany is lagging behind in allowing e-scooters in public (the only two models that are purchasable that are also street legal cost 2000+ Euros).
CalRobert 7y ago
And using a scooter instead of a car means traveling far fewer miles and covering far fewer square miles of your land in car parks, so other people don't have to travel as far either.

algaeontoast 7y ago

Just buy your own e-scooter or electric unicycle. Solves most of these issues and takes stress off of existing public transit (not to mention personal electric transit is almost always faster than public transit during rush-hour).

logifail 7y ago
> Just buy your own e-scooter or electric unicycle ...or stick with either a (kick) scooter or standard bicycle? Definitely better for the environment and almost certainly better for your health, too.
- perlpimp 7y ago
  works if you have a shower and a change of clothes at work and soap and towel etc. its a logistical nightmare. i have both but bicycle is mostly a recreational vehicle
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- KirinDave 7y ago
  It might be better for your health, or it might be totally unrealistic given the state of your health.
- algaeontoast 7y ago
  Unless you want to show up to work a sweaty mess. I have a bike I ride for exercise as well, but commuting really only makes sense on an electric scoot / EUC.
nickserv 7y ago
They're also useful for 'last km' transport, like getting to and from the train station. The smaller ones can also be taken on the bus or subway.
- alistairSH 7y ago

GoToRO 7y ago

"the materials it took to manufacture the frame, wheels and battery" How is this worse than a moped? Silly article.

cameldrv 7y ago
The scooters have very poor durability. They're lasting on the order of 100-200 miles in rental fleets. The study actually underestimates this effect and assumes that they last about 5x longer than they empirically do. Bird and the scooter manufacturers are trying to address this by making beefier scooters that don't fold with bigger batteries, but the abuse they take in a dockless rental fleet and from having such small wheels make durability a big challenge. A moped typically lasts 10,000-100,000 miles, so even though it's much heavier, the energy and cost are amortized over a far longer period.
- polskibus 7y ago
  That is very interesting. Do you have a reference on the 100-200miles lifespan?
  - dahfizz 7y ago
    https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha...
- skummetmaelk 7y ago
  There is no way the average lifespan is only 100-200 miles. That would make the cost per mile 2-3 dollars which is completely unrealistic.
  - cameldrv 7y ago
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-... “The average vehicle went 163.2 miles over 92 trips during its lifetime” https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird-seeks-300m-in-new-funds https://www.theinformation.com/articles/hit-by-big-loss-bird... They lost $100 million on 40 million in revenue.

megaremote 7y ago

Still 1000x better than cars, and anything that gets people out of their cars is great.

Retric 7y ago
Expect you many need to literally manufacture 1,500x as many scooters. ‘The average vehicle went 163.2 miles over 92 trips during its lifetime’ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-than-a-month-louisville-data-suggests/ https://qz.com/1561654/how-long-does-a-scooter-last-less-tha... So, odd as it may seem, electric cars may be better for the environment.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y ago
  The average bicycle isn't any better. Huffy knew this and purposely designed their bikes for a lifetime of 50 miles. We should get rid of them too.
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    How exactly does one go about this? Is it built from paper? Has Silicon Valley actually convinced themselves that bicycles are bad for the environment now?
  - thatfrenchguy 7y ago
    I’ve never seen any bikes that has a lifetime of 50 miles. But I’m all for anti-planned obsolescence laws. Maybe just forcing manufacturers to put the expected life of the device next to it would help ?
- kristo 7y ago
  This idea fails to account for MANY car externalities, like the effects of paving the roads and parking lots they need, and the massive environmental opportunity cost associated with those spaces. Scooters are net positive if they get any number of people out of cars. Yes they're worse than bikes, but nobody was really saying they were better.

jdietrich 7y ago

Shared electric scooters are undoubtedly pretty damned dirty, due to the very short working life of the scooter and the fuel use in collecting and returning the scooters. Owning an electric scooter looks pretty damned clean - ~200kg/CO2e to manufacture the scooter, plus 0 - 300g to generate enough electricity to charge the battery.

melling 7y ago

Prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597711 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597711 Something I pointed out yesterday is that these articles are focusing on greenhouse gases. We still have a major pollution problem in large cities. Reducing this alone makes scooters worth it, IMHO.

sebringj 7y ago

Cars/bikes etc don't have carbon footprints to manufacture? This is an idiotic comparison.

jkoudys 7y ago
It's asinine. I might as well include the CO2 footprint of the wear on your shoes and pants from walking.
- gamblor956 7y ago
  You could, if you wanted an ultra-detailed comparison. And scooters would still be found wanting. Pants and shoes can survive a few months of daily wear. With proper care, even cheapo stuff from Target/Walmart can last for years. Right now, Bird and its competitors are struggling to get six months of lifespan out of scooters used an average of just 3 times a day.
gamblor956 7y ago
Unless you're buying some really crappy cars or bikes, they generally last for several years or decades, compared to the estimated month-6 months lifespan of e-scooters. (Bird has newer scooters coming out that are supposed to last almost a year. Almost a year. For an average of 3 rides a day.) When you're arguing that your mode of transport is green but it only lasts a few weeks with relatively sparse usage, then the manufacturing carbon footprint is absolutely relevant. When the mode of transport lasts for decades and the manufacturing footprint is spread out amongst millions of others vehicles, the manufacturing footprint isn't very relevant.
- sebringj 7y ago
  You have a very good and valid point that I completely missed as I was fooled by the category it resides in.

glemmaPaul 7y ago

What are your guys thoughts on Revel, the electric moped that you can use in Brooklyn. They seem to be more robust, thus potentially stay on the road longer? https://gorevel.com/new-york/ https://gorevel.com/new-york/

pbiggar 7y ago

I'd love to see cities roll out docks for the scooters, where they could charge while parked.