4 ms·

Ten seconds from engaging Autopilot to ramming a truck, and he didn’t see it before he engaged Autopilot?

zaroth 7y ago
Ten seconds from engaging AutoPilot on a drive where AutoPilot had not been used at all previously prior to that point. I don’t know how long the drive was, or how long the car had been on the highway up until that point. But this is somewhat suggesting that the driver Jeremy Banner may have activated AutoPilot in this case to deal with something else going on in the car at the same time, and was not looking out the window as the Tesla approached and ultimately crashed under the tractor-trailer. I think we do know that there was no attempt by the driver at all to brake or steer leading up to the crash. There is a physical camera above the rear-view mirror, but past statements by Tesla (which have been corroborated by Tesla owners who have jailbroken their cars and analyzed the software) is that the “selfie” camera is not even initialized and never records footage, so while there may be footage of the approach and crash, there likely does not exist footage inside the vehicle. I read in a different article that the plaintiff is seeking discovery of this footage claiming it does exist. The stated purpose of the camera is in the future when the car is being used as a RoboTaxi.
danso 7y ago
The article doesn't say anything about the truck being in front of the Tesla's path for 10 seconds: > The crash in west Delray Beach happened four months ago when a tractor-trailer pulled out in front of a bright red Tesla Model 3 driven by 50-year-old Jeremy Banner.
- zaroth 7y ago
  Excerpt of the police report from the scene; “Vehicle 1 (V-1) was a tractor/trailer combination vehicle traveling eastbound on the driveway access to 14095 SR 7 (Pero Farms) preparing to turn left onto SR 7. Vehicle 2 (V-2) was traveling southbound on SR 7 within the outside lane approaching Pero Farms. After V-1 came to a brief stop at a stop sign, V-1 entered the southbound lanes of SR 7 pulling into the path of V-2. V-2 struck the driver side of V-1’s trailer resulting in the roof being sheared off as it passed underneath the trailer. V-2 continued southbound and came to a final rest approx 3/10th of a mile south of the collision. The driver of V-2 was pronounced deceased on scene.” The preliminary NTSB report [2] does not provide any more precise detail of the timeline, except to acknowledge that front facing video does exist, and that neither AutoPilot or the driver attempted to stop or evade the tractor-trailer. As the Tesla approached the private driveway, the combination vehicle pulled from the driveway and traveled east across the southbound lanes of US 441. The truck driver was trying to cross the highway’s southbound lanes and turn left into the northbound lanes. According to surveillance video in the area and forward-facing video from the Tesla, the combination vehicle slowed as it crossed the southbound lanes, blocking the Tesla’s path.... Neither the preliminary data nor the videos indicate that the driver or the ADAS executed evasive maneuvers. [1] - https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trailer-autopilot/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trai... [2] - https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/pages/hwy19fh008-preliminary-report.aspx https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/pages/hw...
- mikeash 7y ago
  Neither did I! But it surely had to be a visible threat. A road where you can drive 68MPH is going to have enough visibility that you’ll see a truck that might cross your path at least that far in advance. Especially in flat-as-a-pancake Florida.
  - danso 7y ago
    Is it Autopilot's standard behavior to decelerate/pump the brakes when it detects a vehicle at an intersection? Yes, I agree 10 seconds should be more than enough time for AP to begin preliminary evasive/mitigating maneuvers, but according to what u/zaroth posted [0], the preliminary findings do no not indicate this. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597980
    - mikeash 7y ago
      I’m not saying Autopilot should have handled this. I’m saying the driver should have seen the potential threat sometime before engaging the system, and realized it was not a safe time to let it run unassisted. (It’s never truly safe in the current incarnation, but there are degrees.)
      - danso 7y ago
        I don't have a Tesla and so don't know how AP is used day-to-day, but I'm assuming it's frequently activated while driving at highway speeds, even amid traffic – similar to standard cruise control? But you're saying that drivers should never activate AP while driving, if any vehicles are also on the road within 5-10s of traveling speed?
        mikeash 7y ago
        Autopilot is a driver assistance feature. You are required to keep your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel while using it. Naturally, not everyone does that, although they definitely should. If they do choose to break those requirements, they should only do it for long enough that safety can be assured. If you use Autopilot for a bit, you get a feel for how it handles different situations, and adjust your attention accordingly. If the road is wide, clear and well marked then I can look far ahead and don’t have to focus too much. If I’m in a construction zone driving right next to a barrier, I need to keep a firm grip to ensure it stays away from that barrier and within the lines. If there’s stopped traffic ahead, I need to start watching to ensure it brakes, and take over to do it myself if it doesn’t. This guy never should have taken his attention away from the road. If he did, he never should have done it for so long. If he did, he never should have done it in a situation where a threat could turn into danger within that time.

Ten seconds from engaging AutoPilot on a drive where AutoPilot had not been used at all previously prior to that point. I don’t know how long the drive was, or how long the car had been on the highway up until that point. But this is somewhat suggesting that the driver Jeremy Banner may have activated AutoPilot in this case to deal with something else going on in the car at the same time, and was not looking out the window as the Tesla approached and ultimately crashed under the tractor-trailer. I think we do know that there was no attempt by the driver at all to brake or steer leading up to the crash. There is a physical camera above the rear-view mirror, but past statements by Tesla (which have been corroborated by Tesla owners who have jailbroken their cars and analyzed the software) is that the “selfie” camera is not even initialized and never records footage, so while there may be footage of the approach and crash, there likely does not exist footage inside the vehicle. I read in a different article that the plaintiff is seeking discovery of this footage claiming it does exist. The stated purpose of the camera is in the future when the car is being used as a RoboTaxi.

danso 7y ago

The article doesn't say anything about the truck being in front of the Tesla's path for 10 seconds: > The crash in west Delray Beach happened four months ago when a tractor-trailer pulled out in front of a bright red Tesla Model 3 driven by 50-year-old Jeremy Banner.

zaroth 7y ago
Excerpt of the police report from the scene; “Vehicle 1 (V-1) was a tractor/trailer combination vehicle traveling eastbound on the driveway access to 14095 SR 7 (Pero Farms) preparing to turn left onto SR 7. Vehicle 2 (V-2) was traveling southbound on SR 7 within the outside lane approaching Pero Farms. After V-1 came to a brief stop at a stop sign, V-1 entered the southbound lanes of SR 7 pulling into the path of V-2. V-2 struck the driver side of V-1’s trailer resulting in the roof being sheared off as it passed underneath the trailer. V-2 continued southbound and came to a final rest approx 3/10th of a mile south of the collision. The driver of V-2 was pronounced deceased on scene.” The preliminary NTSB report [2] does not provide any more precise detail of the timeline, except to acknowledge that front facing video does exist, and that neither AutoPilot or the driver attempted to stop or evade the tractor-trailer. As the Tesla approached the private driveway, the combination vehicle pulled from the driveway and traveled east across the southbound lanes of US 441. The truck driver was trying to cross the highway’s southbound lanes and turn left into the northbound lanes. According to surveillance video in the area and forward-facing video from the Tesla, the combination vehicle slowed as it crossed the southbound lanes, blocking the Tesla’s path.... Neither the preliminary data nor the videos indicate that the driver or the ADAS executed evasive maneuvers. [1] - https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trailer-autopilot/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trai... [2] - https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/pages/hwy19fh008-preliminary-report.aspx https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/pages/hw...
mikeash 7y ago
Neither did I! But it surely had to be a visible threat. A road where you can drive 68MPH is going to have enough visibility that you’ll see a truck that might cross your path at least that far in advance. Especially in flat-as-a-pancake Florida.
- danso 7y ago
  Is it Autopilot's standard behavior to decelerate/pump the brakes when it detects a vehicle at an intersection? Yes, I agree 10 seconds should be more than enough time for AP to begin preliminary evasive/mitigating maneuvers, but according to what u/zaroth posted [0], the preliminary findings do no not indicate this. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597980 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20597980
  - mikeash 7y ago
    I’m not saying Autopilot should have handled this. I’m saying the driver should have seen the potential threat sometime before engaging the system, and realized it was not a safe time to let it run unassisted. (It’s never truly safe in the current incarnation, but there are degrees.)
    - danso 7y ago
      I don't have a Tesla and so don't know how AP is used day-to-day, but I'm assuming it's frequently activated while driving at highway speeds, even amid traffic – similar to standard cruise control? But you're saying that drivers should never activate AP while driving, if any vehicles are also on the road within 5-10s of traveling speed?
      - mikeash 7y ago
        Autopilot is a driver assistance feature. You are required to keep your eyes on the road and your hands on the wheel while using it. Naturally, not everyone does that, although they definitely should. If they do choose to break those requirements, they should only do it for long enough that safety can be assured. If you use Autopilot for a bit, you get a feel for how it handles different situations, and adjust your attention accordingly. If the road is wide, clear and well marked then I can look far ahead and don’t have to focus too much. If I’m in a construction zone driving right next to a barrier, I need to keep a firm grip to ensure it stays away from that barrier and within the lines. If there’s stopped traffic ahead, I need to start watching to ensure it brakes, and take over to do it myself if it doesn’t. This guy never should have taken his attention away from the road. If he did, he never should have done it for so long. If he did, he never should have done it in a situation where a threat could turn into danger within that time.