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It’s practically a trope that every time this subject comes up, the top-rated comment is a skeptical response...from a junior developer. As someone who actuall

by irq11 7y ago

It’s practically a trope that every time this subject comes up, the top-rated comment is a skeptical response...from a junior developer. As someone who actually has worked as a programmer on the far side of 40, let me assure you that yes, older programmers have value. Your perceptions are not wrong. But that said, the article is right. The people who do the hiring and firing do not care about what you care about. As the article noted clearly, the marginal benefit of an older engineer has to exceed the marginal costs. And if we’re being honest, the fact that a graybeard can use tcpdump without reading the docs carries little marginal benefit. Guess what, kid? You’ll figure it out, and you’ll do it quickly enough that the total cost of your learning won’t really compare to the cost of hiring me. That’s why you see lots of anecdotes about the value of older engineers, but lots of articles from older engineers who know that the discrimination is real. And this is coming from someone who has managed to “stay relevant” a lot longer than most software devs.

C4stor 7y ago
I litterally wrote that I don't how management values what I value. I also never wrote that the article is wrong, I wrote that I didn't find it convincing. I'm simply observing that after more than ten years developing and learning the craft, I still find myself not able to correctly know the old tools, and instead I merely have an idea of some that exist, and I'm sometimes able to google the correct one. As so, I'm stating that when I see a graybeard with actual knowledge of fundamentals that I still totally lack, well, I respect that, and I _hope_ that he's not unemployable because if it is the case, I fear that our industry is doomed to produced always more buggy software due to a lack of basic understanding. And I think than faced with no evidence from the article or you, it's well within my rights to be skeptical. So, thank you for the unwarranted condescendance.
- irq11 7y ago
  I honestly wasn’t trying to be condescending to you. I even said, right at the very beginning of my comment, that you’re right about many of your observations. My word choice may have been poor in some places, but overall I defend the content. You’re (self-admittedly) missing some of the life and business experience that comes with being an older programmer, and then expressing skepticism about direct advice communicated by older programmers. This is also so common as to be a meme: Person A: “I experienced $something_rare at work” Person B: “I have never experienced such things. I am skeptical of your claims.” So sure, you can call it whatever you like - skepticsm, disagreement or debate - but when people tell you about their experiences, and then you reject those experiences because you don’t have “evidence”...well, eventually you’re just confirming your own biases. Again, it’s not that you’re wrong - I actually agree with your perceptions of older devs. I just think you’re missing critical life experiences that connect your observations with the arguments being made in the article.
  - C4stor 7y ago
    Well, what you wrote was : > It’s practically a trope that every time this subject comes up, the top-rated comment is a skeptical response...from a junior developer. I looked at the top rated comment for the other times this exact same article was posted on hacker news. For none of those, the top rated comment "is a skeptical response...from a junior developer". Actually, it's more often (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934500, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580) from a self declared senior developer. And none of those top comments really collaborate the article. Talk about confirming one's biases... But taking into account all the anecdote from senior devs available just on hackernews, there's no consensus emerging whether the article makes sense or not. So, at this point, I don't really feel the need for a plan B, even if being 40 years old is not really this far away for me. And it seems from the shared stories that whether this is needed or not is really based on personal experience, and is not a generally needed advice. I certainly hope to be in a path where I'm honing my skills well enough to be able to continue beind paid to engineer software after I'm 40.
    - irq11 7y ago
      Well, sure: you disagree, and you’re seeking out arguments that confirm your existing beliefs. In any case, I’ve said what I have to say on the subject. I can’t make you listen to my direct experience, but I’m not going to spend time arguing with you about it.
pthomas551 7y ago
The thing is as startups mature and become enterprise level shops, they need people who know how to work with enterprise software. Guess who has all the experience with that? Yep, the people with 10+ years experience. My company is hiring very senior devs like crazy right now for exactly this reason.
- irq11 7y ago
  I think there are some orgs that definitely benefit, but it’s an 80/20 thing: 80% of software shops are more than content to hire junior devs and live with the costs of their mistakes. (Especially because most of those costs never really get experienced by the people who make the decisions.)

by irq11 7y ago

C4stor 7y ago

I litterally wrote that I don't how management values what I value. I also never wrote that the article is wrong, I wrote that I didn't find it convincing. I'm simply observing that after more than ten years developing and learning the craft, I still find myself not able to correctly know the old tools, and instead I merely have an idea of some that exist, and I'm sometimes able to google the correct one. As so, I'm stating that when I see a graybeard with actual knowledge of fundamentals that I still totally lack, well, I respect that, and I _hope_ that he's not unemployable because if it is the case, I fear that our industry is doomed to produced always more buggy software due to a lack of basic understanding. And I think than faced with no evidence from the article or you, it's well within my rights to be skeptical. So, thank you for the unwarranted condescendance.

irq11 7y ago
I honestly wasn’t trying to be condescending to you. I even said, right at the very beginning of my comment, that you’re right about many of your observations. My word choice may have been poor in some places, but overall I defend the content. You’re (self-admittedly) missing some of the life and business experience that comes with being an older programmer, and then expressing skepticism about direct advice communicated by older programmers. This is also so common as to be a meme: Person A: “I experienced $something_rare at work” Person B: “I have never experienced such things. I am skeptical of your claims.” So sure, you can call it whatever you like - skepticsm, disagreement or debate - but when people tell you about their experiences, and then you reject those experiences because you don’t have “evidence”...well, eventually you’re just confirming your own biases. Again, it’s not that you’re wrong - I actually agree with your perceptions of older devs. I just think you’re missing critical life experiences that connect your observations with the arguments being made in the article.
- C4stor 7y ago
  Well, what you wrote was : > It’s practically a trope that every time this subject comes up, the top-rated comment is a skeptical response...from a junior developer. I looked at the top rated comment for the other times this exact same article was posted on hacker news. For none of those, the top rated comment "is a skeptical response...from a junior developer". Actually, it's more often (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16934500, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9361580) from a self declared senior developer. And none of those top comments really collaborate the article. Talk about confirming one's biases... But taking into account all the anecdote from senior devs available just on hackernews, there's no consensus emerging whether the article makes sense or not. So, at this point, I don't really feel the need for a plan B, even if being 40 years old is not really this far away for me. And it seems from the shared stories that whether this is needed or not is really based on personal experience, and is not a generally needed advice. I certainly hope to be in a path where I'm honing my skills well enough to be able to continue beind paid to engineer software after I'm 40.
  - irq11 7y ago
    Well, sure: you disagree, and you’re seeking out arguments that confirm your existing beliefs. In any case, I’ve said what I have to say on the subject. I can’t make you listen to my direct experience, but I’m not going to spend time arguing with you about it.

pthomas551 7y ago

The thing is as startups mature and become enterprise level shops, they need people who know how to work with enterprise software. Guess who has all the experience with that? Yep, the people with 10+ years experience. My company is hiring very senior devs like crazy right now for exactly this reason.

irq11 7y ago
I think there are some orgs that definitely benefit, but it’s an 80/20 thing: 80% of software shops are more than content to hire junior devs and live with the costs of their mistakes. (Especially because most of those costs never really get experienced by the people who make the decisions.)