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Granted, there are certainly worse implementations of immutability than others, but immutability as the foundational architecture (even in its best design) crea

Granted, there are certainly worse implementations of immutability than others, but immutability as the foundational architecture (even in its best design) creates bottlenecks. Yes, a person owning their data should mean they can change it! Fair point on UI/UX, you got me here - you are right. It is trivial to build immutability on mutability, this is what MD5/SHA checksums do all the time on things like downloads. But if your base system is immutability, it is hard to do anything else well. To your question: I agree signing is important. Doesn't mean it needs to be immutable! Very well said! I'm impressed with how both precise and concise that was. Good point. Oh sorry, decentralization is great, just its target use case should be "developer fantasy" but "user value add". Sorry for the confusion here. I'm pro decentralization (I build p2p protocols).

lijogdfljk 7y ago
> Yes, a person owning their data should mean they can change it! Well being able to change data is of course needed; so that goes without saying (I should hope). However what I mean by immutability is rather that I think the web should allow me to link to a piece of content, and ensure that what I link cannot be changed from underneath me if I choose not to. I feel like I'm describing features and you're describing implementation. To me, immutability is a feature. I'm not at all referring to blockchain or any of that junk - merely that I want to be able to link (in the web sense, url/etc) to content - to discuss it with other people and etc, and have that content not change. Optionally of course I should be able to link to mutable content. However we have mutability down. The feature add I'm talking about, is immutability. > It is trivial to build immutability on mutability, this is what MD5/SHA checksums do all the time on things like downloads. But if your base system is immutability, it is hard to do anything else well. Sure, but that's an implementation detail. I was not (or did not intent to, at least) say that the "base implementation" must be immutable. All I care about is that immutability is a first class citizen, and linking immutable content is possible. To build user features around immutability, where as nothing like that exists in the current "web".
- marknadal 7y ago
  Excellent separation of concerns (feature vs implementation), totally clears things up in my head, and I agree with you now. Do you write/blog/tweet? Your clarity and ability to see through things is fantastic. I'd love to follow your work.
  - lijogdfljk 7y ago
    Haha, alas no. You have me curious about CRDT and immutability though and will be investigating it more for my application. If at all possible. Appreciate the talk!

lijogdfljk 7y ago

> Yes, a person owning their data should mean they can change it! Well being able to change data is of course needed; so that goes without saying (I should hope). However what I mean by immutability is rather that I think the web should allow me to link to a piece of content, and ensure that what I link cannot be changed from underneath me if I choose not to. I feel like I'm describing features and you're describing implementation. To me, immutability is a feature. I'm not at all referring to blockchain or any of that junk - merely that I want to be able to link (in the web sense, url/etc) to content - to discuss it with other people and etc, and have that content not change. Optionally of course I should be able to link to mutable content. However we have mutability down. The feature add I'm talking about, is immutability. > It is trivial to build immutability on mutability, this is what MD5/SHA checksums do all the time on things like downloads. But if your base system is immutability, it is hard to do anything else well. Sure, but that's an implementation detail. I was not (or did not intent to, at least) say that the "base implementation" must be immutable. All I care about is that immutability is a first class citizen, and linking immutable content is possible. To build user features around immutability, where as nothing like that exists in the current "web".

marknadal 7y ago
Excellent separation of concerns (feature vs implementation), totally clears things up in my head, and I agree with you now. Do you write/blog/tweet? Your clarity and ability to see through things is fantastic. I'd love to follow your work.
- lijogdfljk 7y ago
  Haha, alas no. You have me curious about CRDT and immutability though and will be investigating it more for my application. If at all possible. Appreciate the talk!