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So what? I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4. Your response and the others here have nothing

So what? I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4. Your response and the others here have nothing to do with that.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4 I wouldn’t, but that’s because of something deeper than anything we experience in America or Australia. Consider pre-Snowden public opinions on mass surveillance. The public didn’t know and didn’t believe. Once the information came out, however, people believed. Some actions were taken, and on many fronts activism got aggressive. (A large minority accepted the new facts while deeming it acceptable. A smaller minority thinks the disclosures themselves were a conspiracy.) It would be surprising if a majority of Chinese students, after learning about the massacre at Tiananmen Square [1], rejected it as a global propaganda campaign. Some will. More than in America, given the energy given to brainwashing by Beijing. The difference will be in the number who believe it happened but defend it as having been necessary. Teaching the worth of democratic values is tough. The violence exhibited towards the Hong Kong protesters, and Beijing’s emissary’s support of it as patriotism, exemplifies that. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...
- rotred 7y ago
  > I wouldn’t, but that’s because of something deeper than anything we experience in America or Australia. I'm sick of this holier than thou attitude that people have here. There's this patronizing attitude that if only the brain washed Chinese knew what was really happening they would rise up! Yet you know about the Nayirah testimony, MKUltra, Snowden, Cambridge Analytica, migrant camps... why aren't you out protesting, storming congress, why isn't Bush in prison, why isn't Trump impeached? It's not a "small minority"; it's the majority. Most Americans don't care enough to find out and if they did they wouldn't care enough to do anything. I'd argue that the propaganda is much deeper and subtle in the West. The media is a oligarchy yet it's still "independent" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI You believe are the good guys despite history despite everything.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    >why isn't Bush in prison, why isn't Trump impeached? It's not a "small minority"; it's the majority Because in America you can openly talk about those things on the press and the internet and comments, and thus let off steam... Of course the end result is the same, as in China they keep happening!
  - jhanschoo 7y ago
    Trump isn't impeached simply because not enough representatives think that these are sufficiently severe atrocities to do so, and not enough people think that these are severe enough to undermine the state institutions. You have legislators and media critical of the government wrt CA and migrant camps. That's why you don't see so much civil disobedience, because these concerns are visibly reflected in the government. This doesn't mean I disagree with you that Chinese who know more about Tiananmen wouldn't "rise up", but against your argument that it is propaganda in the West that prevents people from civil disobedience. I would agree that propaganda and soft power shape opinion and taboo in the West and US, but on the other hand, I don't think that this insidious and subtle propaganda is anywhere near as powerful as the total propaganda and coercion practiced by some other regimes.

So what? I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4. Your response and the others here have nothing to do with that.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> I’m talking about why anybody would expect a Chinese student to change their attitude because of 6/4 I wouldn’t, but that’s because of something deeper than anything we experience in America or Australia. Consider pre-Snowden public opinions on mass surveillance. The public didn’t know and didn’t believe. Once the information came out, however, people believed. Some actions were taken, and on many fronts activism got aggressive. (A large minority accepted the new facts while deeming it acceptable. A smaller minority thinks the disclosures themselves were a conspiracy.) It would be surprising if a majority of Chinese students, after learning about the massacre at Tiananmen Square [1], rejected it as a global propaganda campaign. Some will. More than in America, given the energy given to brainwashing by Beijing. The difference will be in the number who believe it happened but defend it as having been necessary. Teaching the worth of democratic values is tough. The violence exhibited towards the Hong Kong protesters, and Beijing’s emissary’s support of it as patriotism, exemplifies that. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...

rotred 7y ago
> I wouldn’t, but that’s because of something deeper than anything we experience in America or Australia. I'm sick of this holier than thou attitude that people have here. There's this patronizing attitude that if only the brain washed Chinese knew what was really happening they would rise up! Yet you know about the Nayirah testimony, MKUltra, Snowden, Cambridge Analytica, migrant camps... why aren't you out protesting, storming congress, why isn't Bush in prison, why isn't Trump impeached? It's not a "small minority"; it's the majority. Most Americans don't care enough to find out and if they did they wouldn't care enough to do anything. I'd argue that the propaganda is much deeper and subtle in the West. The media is a oligarchy yet it's still "independent" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI You believe are the good guys despite history despite everything.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >why isn't Bush in prison, why isn't Trump impeached? It's not a "small minority"; it's the majority Because in America you can openly talk about those things on the press and the internet and comments, and thus let off steam... Of course the end result is the same, as in China they keep happening!
- jhanschoo 7y ago
  Trump isn't impeached simply because not enough representatives think that these are sufficiently severe atrocities to do so, and not enough people think that these are severe enough to undermine the state institutions. You have legislators and media critical of the government wrt CA and migrant camps. That's why you don't see so much civil disobedience, because these concerns are visibly reflected in the government. This doesn't mean I disagree with you that Chinese who know more about Tiananmen wouldn't "rise up", but against your argument that it is propaganda in the West that prevents people from civil disobedience. I would agree that propaganda and soft power shape opinion and taboo in the West and US, but on the other hand, I don't think that this insidious and subtle propaganda is anywhere near as powerful as the total propaganda and coercion practiced by some other regimes.