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The article uses Ruby on Rails as an argument from 2009, saying the 10 years of C++ development is no longer relevant. Apart from that statement not really age

The article uses Ruby on Rails as an argument from 2009, saying the 10 years of C++ development is no longer relevant. Apart from that statement not really ageing well, it doesn't really make sense as there will always be a consistent demand for C++ for embedded etc., likewise Java for enterprise, as they are mature and proven technologies in instutitions. Just as there is an established market for RoR with companies that adopted it early on.

wpietri 7y ago
I think you're making the author's point. Java at this point is the new COBOL. C++ has gone from important mainstream language to narrow niche. Ruby on Rails is on the same declining curve, just not as far along; much of the excitement has shifted to Node, React etc. Demand for old languages isn't consistent. It declines over time as code bases get replaced. A programmer betting that they will die before their chosen language does is taking some terrible risks.
- rightbyte 7y ago
  I would say both Java and C++ still are important mainstream languages.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    You can say it, but I'm not sure why you'd think it's true. As I mention elsewhere in this thread, Java is mainly being written in contexts where they already have a lot of Java. And C++ has been declining for years. I'm not even sure you can write C++ for the common mobile platforms. I very rarely see it used in new server-side code bases. Or even old ones these days. It was a popular language for Windows apps, but that's a declining market these days. 5 years ago, C++ was already not getting taught much in schools [1], and surely that hasn't changed. [1] https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/176450-python-is-now-the-most-popular-introductory-teaching-language-at-top-u-s-universities/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/176450-python-is-now-th...
- mattmanser 7y ago
  I met a COBOL contract programmer 15 years ago. At the time he made a lot of money from it because there were few left, no new work, but maintaing old code bases. Java today, OTOH, is nowhere near that point yet. People still build plenty of new things in Java and it's easy to search a job site and see tons of Java jobs. The JVM is widely used and no-one will blink twice if you want to build something on it. I don't see them as comparable at all.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    I think it's a mistake to confuse JVM languages with Java. But that aside, By "Java is the new COBOL", I'm not saying that Java today is COBOL today. I'm saying it's a dominant language for legacy apps and a lot of "enterprise" coding in shops that already have a heavy Java investment. But relatively few new companies are doing new work in pure Java, so it's definitely headed down the same road. And there are definitely plenty of companies where people will blink a lot more than twice if you propose building something in Java. That's not to say it's bad; I've written a bunch of Java for money, and may do so again. But I think it's hard to justify in a lot of environments, and correctly so.
    - bpicolo 7y ago
      Netflix, Amazon, Google are all on the Java train in real capacities. There's a crap load of Java out there.
      - wpietri 7y ago
        Sure. All of those companies are over 20 years old, so it's not surprising they'd have codebases in a language that was very hot early on in their lifespans. There was a also crapload of COBOL out there for decades after new companies turned away from it. There is still a fair bit.
    - cutler 7y ago
      According to angel.co there are 88 startups in London alone using Java. Whenever I attend London's Silicon Milk Roundabout bi-annual jobs fair the dominant languages are Python and Java. Java's status in the top 3 programming languages worldwide cannot be explained away by its dominant position in legacy enterprise software. What about Android, for example?

wpietri 7y ago

I think you're making the author's point. Java at this point is the new COBOL. C++ has gone from important mainstream language to narrow niche. Ruby on Rails is on the same declining curve, just not as far along; much of the excitement has shifted to Node, React etc. Demand for old languages isn't consistent. It declines over time as code bases get replaced. A programmer betting that they will die before their chosen language does is taking some terrible risks.

rightbyte 7y ago
I would say both Java and C++ still are important mainstream languages.
- wpietri 7y ago
  You can say it, but I'm not sure why you'd think it's true. As I mention elsewhere in this thread, Java is mainly being written in contexts where they already have a lot of Java. And C++ has been declining for years. I'm not even sure you can write C++ for the common mobile platforms. I very rarely see it used in new server-side code bases. Or even old ones these days. It was a popular language for Windows apps, but that's a declining market these days. 5 years ago, C++ was already not getting taught much in schools [1], and surely that hasn't changed. [1] https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/176450-python-is-now-the-most-popular-introductory-teaching-language-at-top-u-s-universities/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/176450-python-is-now-th...
mattmanser 7y ago
I met a COBOL contract programmer 15 years ago. At the time he made a lot of money from it because there were few left, no new work, but maintaing old code bases. Java today, OTOH, is nowhere near that point yet. People still build plenty of new things in Java and it's easy to search a job site and see tons of Java jobs. The JVM is widely used and no-one will blink twice if you want to build something on it. I don't see them as comparable at all.
- wpietri 7y ago
  I think it's a mistake to confuse JVM languages with Java. But that aside, By "Java is the new COBOL", I'm not saying that Java today is COBOL today. I'm saying it's a dominant language for legacy apps and a lot of "enterprise" coding in shops that already have a heavy Java investment. But relatively few new companies are doing new work in pure Java, so it's definitely headed down the same road. And there are definitely plenty of companies where people will blink a lot more than twice if you propose building something in Java. That's not to say it's bad; I've written a bunch of Java for money, and may do so again. But I think it's hard to justify in a lot of environments, and correctly so.
  - bpicolo 7y ago
    Netflix, Amazon, Google are all on the Java train in real capacities. There's a crap load of Java out there.
    - wpietri 7y ago
      Sure. All of those companies are over 20 years old, so it's not surprising they'd have codebases in a language that was very hot early on in their lifespans. There was a also crapload of COBOL out there for decades after new companies turned away from it. There is still a fair bit.
  - cutler 7y ago
    According to angel.co there are 88 startups in London alone using Java. Whenever I attend London's Silicon Milk Roundabout bi-annual jobs fair the dominant languages are Python and Java. Java's status in the top 3 programming languages worldwide cannot be explained away by its dominant position in legacy enterprise software. What about Android, for example?