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Microphones connected to power and internet 24/7 have been in people’s houses since the 1990s (or earlier, if you consider the phone network to be equivalent).

Microphones connected to power and internet 24/7 have been in people’s houses since the 1990s (or earlier, if you consider the phone network to be equivalent). Yet it only became “creepy” when they started talking back. This tells me it’s an emotional response, not rational.

blub 7y ago
Nobody considers the phone network to be equivalent :) Even current smartphones do not turn on their microphones outside of a call, unless one has made the huge mistake to turn their assistants on, or there's an app recording - and at least on iOS that's controllable by permissions and marked clearly when the app is in the background. Anyway, smartphones are creepy too.
- mikeash 7y ago
  How do you know that phones don’t turn on their microphones outside of a call?
  - emiliobumachar 7y ago
    Back in the 1990s, their hardware design was simple enough that any mass surveillance would inevitably get exposed when the odd hacker took his device apart. These days, I'm not sure at all. All we have is the law as a deterrent, and that's weak, especially to governments.
  - blub 7y ago
    This was answered in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20593642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20593642 One cannot know with absolute certainty, only with reasonable certainty. On the other hand, an assistant is listening all the time by design. If one needs to know with absolute certainty, then they cannot use a mobile phone, nor probably a reasonably modern regular phone.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Modern smartphones have assistants that "listen all the time" in the same way that you're saying that smart speakers do (namely, they look for a wakeword).
      - Faark 7y ago
        No, modern smartphones allow you to have assistants that listen all the time. Disabling those is one of the first things I do, and I'd be pretty unhappy if it turns out those are still listening and wasting battery (even aside of privacy issues).
        eridius 7y ago
        No the parent is right. They are not "listening all the time". They're essentially sleeping while a separate process handles the audio stream looking for the wakeword. When it finds the wakeword, it then "wakes up" the assistant which reprocesses the audio snippet to confirm the wakeword is really there (using more expensive analysis), before then actively listening to the rest of the audio.
        blub 7y ago
        The implementation is inconsequential as long as the smart assistants can be turned off.
      - blub 7y ago
        Said smartphone assistants can be switched off and one still has a smartphone. Switching a smart speaker off turns it into a paperweight.
jerf 7y ago
Cell phones, even now, can't be doing that much background processing unknownst to us, because they are connected to a battery, battery life is a big deal in a highly competitive industry, and we'd all notice if they drained very quickly. ISTR there are documented instances of law enforcement and/or intelligence doing that sort of thing to phones, and the battery drain causing it to get noticed. Hooking it up to an outlet is a legit different thing. If battery tech or power reduction tech progresses sufficiently, including just by continuing on its current curve (most power reduction rather than battery tech), cell phones will rise to the same level of concerning. (Cell phones of course leak location data full time, and some similar things like that. I'm not saying the current cell situation is awesome either. Only that there is a legit reason to be more concerned about gear hooked up to actual power lines than portable gear.)
- mikeash 7y ago
  I don’t think battery life is a problem. I think the examples you mention were from much older phones with limited local storage, so they were basically just in a call the whole time, and burning power operating the radio. A modern phone can save the data to local storage and upload it opportunistically. We know that modern phones fan constantly listen to the microphone with minimal power impact, since that’s what these voice assistants are doing. That’s specialized hardware, but adding a little something to save the data wouldn’t be hard. Even if we take it as a given that it can’t be done on batter power, phones get connected to outlets pretty regularly. Have you ever heard someone refuse to charge their phone in their house because it’s creepy?
- tialaramex 7y ago
  Counterpoint: Google's actual smartphone line (Pixel) ships with passive song recognition, default disabled. I enabled it because I was curious and it sips so little power that I left it on, but to function it has to be listening to the audio all the time so that it can say to itself "Hey, that is Sabotage by the Beastie Boys". It doesn't use the network, or the screen (unless you power the screen on to find out what you're listening to) but it passively remembers every recognisable song it heard, essentially forever. So that means it is _listening_ it just doesn't tell anybody about it.
6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
It's totally rational. When the mic activates only when I physically press a button or pick up a device and dial a number, it's different from it activating itself. I'm in control of the former, and am happy to have it in my home.
- mikeash 7y ago
  How do you know you’re in control?
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
    I don't. It's a spectrum. I don't know that an old-school land line phone isn't always listening. But it was made by some disinterested party who just makes hardware. It was a simple logical device designed to rely on a simple mechanical switch. It could be listening, but it's understandable by someone like me and there's no incentive for anyone involved. I don't really know if I'm in control, but it's reasonable to think I am. I don't know that a modern voice assistant isn't always listening either. It is an incredibly complex device usually designed by an entity whose business makes hundreds of millions of dollars based off of the inspection of the personal data of people like me. It is a complex full functioning computer. It uses a statistical algorithm that I know will incorrectly activate sometimes. I cannot understand or predict when it will listen. I cannot understand or predict when it will send a recording somewhere. It receives updates frequently. Because it's a full computer with an internet connection, those updates could make it do a huge variety of things. I know I'm not in control.
    - mikeash 7y ago
      This seems reasonable, but a cell phone would be close to a voice assistant on this spectrum, or even in the same place.
      - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
        Yup. E.g. Siri

blub 7y ago

Nobody considers the phone network to be equivalent :) Even current smartphones do not turn on their microphones outside of a call, unless one has made the huge mistake to turn their assistants on, or there's an app recording - and at least on iOS that's controllable by permissions and marked clearly when the app is in the background. Anyway, smartphones are creepy too.

mikeash 7y ago
How do you know that phones don’t turn on their microphones outside of a call?
- emiliobumachar 7y ago
  Back in the 1990s, their hardware design was simple enough that any mass surveillance would inevitably get exposed when the odd hacker took his device apart. These days, I'm not sure at all. All we have is the law as a deterrent, and that's weak, especially to governments.
- blub 7y ago
  This was answered in another comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20593642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20593642 One cannot know with absolute certainty, only with reasonable certainty. On the other hand, an assistant is listening all the time by design. If one needs to know with absolute certainty, then they cannot use a mobile phone, nor probably a reasonably modern regular phone.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Modern smartphones have assistants that "listen all the time" in the same way that you're saying that smart speakers do (namely, they look for a wakeword).
    - Faark 7y ago
      No, modern smartphones allow you to have assistants that listen all the time. Disabling those is one of the first things I do, and I'd be pretty unhappy if it turns out those are still listening and wasting battery (even aside of privacy issues).
      - eridius 7y ago
        No the parent is right. They are not "listening all the time". They're essentially sleeping while a separate process handles the audio stream looking for the wakeword. When it finds the wakeword, it then "wakes up" the assistant which reprocesses the audio snippet to confirm the wakeword is really there (using more expensive analysis), before then actively listening to the rest of the audio.
        blub 7y ago
        The implementation is inconsequential as long as the smart assistants can be turned off.
    - blub 7y ago
      Said smartphone assistants can be switched off and one still has a smartphone. Switching a smart speaker off turns it into a paperweight.

jerf 7y ago

Cell phones, even now, can't be doing that much background processing unknownst to us, because they are connected to a battery, battery life is a big deal in a highly competitive industry, and we'd all notice if they drained very quickly. ISTR there are documented instances of law enforcement and/or intelligence doing that sort of thing to phones, and the battery drain causing it to get noticed. Hooking it up to an outlet is a legit different thing. If battery tech or power reduction tech progresses sufficiently, including just by continuing on its current curve (most power reduction rather than battery tech), cell phones will rise to the same level of concerning. (Cell phones of course leak location data full time, and some similar things like that. I'm not saying the current cell situation is awesome either. Only that there is a legit reason to be more concerned about gear hooked up to actual power lines than portable gear.)

mikeash 7y ago
I don’t think battery life is a problem. I think the examples you mention were from much older phones with limited local storage, so they were basically just in a call the whole time, and burning power operating the radio. A modern phone can save the data to local storage and upload it opportunistically. We know that modern phones fan constantly listen to the microphone with minimal power impact, since that’s what these voice assistants are doing. That’s specialized hardware, but adding a little something to save the data wouldn’t be hard. Even if we take it as a given that it can’t be done on batter power, phones get connected to outlets pretty regularly. Have you ever heard someone refuse to charge their phone in their house because it’s creepy?
tialaramex 7y ago
Counterpoint: Google's actual smartphone line (Pixel) ships with passive song recognition, default disabled. I enabled it because I was curious and it sips so little power that I left it on, but to function it has to be listening to the audio all the time so that it can say to itself "Hey, that is Sabotage by the Beastie Boys". It doesn't use the network, or the screen (unless you power the screen on to find out what you're listening to) but it passively remembers every recognisable song it heard, essentially forever. So that means it is _listening_ it just doesn't tell anybody about it.

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago

It's totally rational. When the mic activates only when I physically press a button or pick up a device and dial a number, it's different from it activating itself. I'm in control of the former, and am happy to have it in my home.

mikeash 7y ago
How do you know you’re in control?
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  I don't. It's a spectrum. I don't know that an old-school land line phone isn't always listening. But it was made by some disinterested party who just makes hardware. It was a simple logical device designed to rely on a simple mechanical switch. It could be listening, but it's understandable by someone like me and there's no incentive for anyone involved. I don't really know if I'm in control, but it's reasonable to think I am. I don't know that a modern voice assistant isn't always listening either. It is an incredibly complex device usually designed by an entity whose business makes hundreds of millions of dollars based off of the inspection of the personal data of people like me. It is a complex full functioning computer. It uses a statistical algorithm that I know will incorrectly activate sometimes. I cannot understand or predict when it will listen. I cannot understand or predict when it will send a recording somewhere. It receives updates frequently. Because it's a full computer with an internet connection, those updates could make it do a huge variety of things. I know I'm not in control.
  - mikeash 7y ago
    This seems reasonable, but a cell phone would be close to a voice assistant on this spectrum, or even in the same place.
    - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
      Yup. E.g. Siri