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stuaxo 7y ago
Not sure why you would bring up Epstein, an actual monster, in the context of PizzaGate which was clearly dangerous nonsense.
- rasengan 7y ago
  The responder likely brought up Epstein given that he was front and center in the discussion of PizzaGate as it erupted as were the Clintons, Podestas, Marina Abromovic among others. If you have the time to look into this conspiracy, there are interesting links that should absolutely be explored and understood more. Edit: I was downvoted and while I don’t like discussing meta actions, I was wondering if anyone could provide compelling arguments as to why they did so. Sex trafficking little children is abhorrent and wrong.
- murph-almighty 7y ago
  I don't subscribe to Pizzagate, but I suppose it's because the stories around both are _similar_ (international cabal of abusers), it's just that one was fake and a long term play to try to scare people out of voting for Hillary Clinton.
  - pacoWebConsult 7y ago
    Were the Podesta emails fake? How do you fake DKIM?
    - Sebguer 7y ago
      No, it's just that sane and rational people realize that the emails are just old people conversing and not proof of an insane conspiracy.
    - slouch 7y ago
      Are you about to bring up the "pedophile code words" conspiracy theory about those emails on Hackernews?
      - pacoWebConsult 7y ago
        I'm sure "pizza-related handkerchief map" was just a typo on John's behalf... Maybe he was on ambien when he was asking if he’ll do better playing dominos on cheese than on pasta?
        slouch 7y ago
        Did he type that at all? Did you leave a handkerchief 09-02-2014 From: Susan Sandler To: John Podesta The realtor found a handkerchief (I think it has a map that seems pizza-related. Is it yorus? They can send it if you want. I know you’re busy, so feel free not to respond if it’s not yours or you don’t want it. 09-04-2014 From: John Podesta To: Susan Sandler It's mine, but not worth worrying about.
        pacoWebConsult 7y ago
        Oh he didn't send it, but receiving it and not saying anything about the nonsense someone sent is just as suspicious. The dominos on cheese comment is veritably him, though. But clearly nothing is going on and anyone that brings it up must be a domestic terrorist.
        slouch 7y ago
        Wrong again, that was Herb Sandler. Today is the first day that I read any of these emails, and I already know more than you about them. Why am I here pointing out your misunderstandings of the facts? Shouldn't you have become a steward of the facts before unraveling your thoughts in this thread?
    - chaosite 7y ago
      The Podesta e-mails were not fake (at least as far as I know), but they were out-of-context view into the cynical world of running a campaign. The idea that the Clinton campaign was using "pizza" as a code-word for child pornography, and that the basement of a Washington DC pizza place (which had no basement) was used as a hub for an international child smuggling operation, aka pizzagate, is absolutely fake.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- jerf 7y ago
  A month ago, you would have said "Not sure why you would bring up Epstein; he's old news and did his time years ago." A year or so ago, you would have said "Not sure why you would bring up Epstein, he's old news and did his time years ago, and what's with these weird conspiracy theories about some harmless-looking club for people with too much money to play make-believe dress up at each other every so often? I had to google to even find that much." The truth of the whole thing is beyond me. But the first derivative of this stuff is disturbing. It may only be a small amount so far, but it's significant enough stuff that that's a problem even so.
  - duxup 7y ago
    Do you feel Pizzagate is real?
    - jerf 7y ago
      What I feel doesn't matter. What matters is the truth. I don't know that the whole thing is true, but the odds that it's "just" Epstein and NXVIM (itself a rather disturbingly large operation, if you read about the court cases, albeit not exactly an unprecedented one; "sex cult" is almost a redundant phrase, if you look at the history of such things, in that cults almost always involve "weird sex stuff"; the weird thing about this one is who was involved rather than its nature) strike me as low. Whether it's just a bit bigger or way bigger, heck if I know. My understanding of my ignorance grows every year, and sometimes it seems like that's all that really does, despite my continuing to acquire "facts" over time. But I do know that in terms of understanding this sort of thing, you can't get anywhere by discarding true signal. Epstein and NXVIM are real, and that needs to be grappled with.
      - duxup 7y ago
        >you can't get anywhere by discarding true signal. What does that mean?
        jerf 7y ago
        Sorry; sort of referencing information theory and also the rationalism movement. One way of thinking about information is "the extent to which something is a surprise". The rationalists point out that you need to be sensitive to that. Dismissing NXVIM and Epstein today may seem easy, but the question is, would you have believed the truth about them before you heard it [1]? If not, that is a surprise to you, real information, real signal, and you shouldn't discard it. It does not mean that the only logical conclusion is to believe Pizzagate must be true in its entirity!!!11!1. But it does mean you have something to grapple with, a strong signal that your previous model is false in some manner. Brains are lazy and take least effort paths, and the least effort path is just to ignore that there was a contradiction, but your really shouldn't do that. For myself and my priors, Pizzagate as a whole is a bit much to swallow. But "Epstein and NXVIM are the tip of an iceberg, albeit one much smaller than Pizzagate" is not at all. As I alluded to earlier, there's plenty of history that would support that no problem. Read accounts of cults and what they were like to live in from those who escaped, for instance. Human psychology has some very strange, yet weirdly popular, corner cases in it, especially weird ones around group behavior. I do not understand them either intuitively or intellectually, I can not explain them, but clearly they exist. [1]: Bearing in mind that Epstein today is still just somewhat well-sourced allegations with a lot of prior reason to believe they are plausible even just from the mainstream news reports of the past including public knowledge of related past convictions, but that NXVIM has been through court cases and some verdicts have been reached, though I believe they are ongoing overall.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- el_cujo 7y ago
  I don't think anyone doubts Epstein's guilt at this point. The conspiracy angle is more about who else among the "world elite" joined him in his crimes and tried to cover them up.
pacoWebConsult 7y ago
It's concerning that the QAnon Movement is labeled as a threat, considering his main message is to encourage people to just ask questions and hold the government accountable for collaborating with the UK and Italy intel communities in order to spy on US citizens. This is confirmed factual information, all online at qmap.pub, but Q just asks questions and anons dig for information? Why is open source intelligence a bad thing? I understand this is a problem when people storm businesses and break into places, but outside of that how is it a threat unless Q is actually on target and the intelligence community and Obama administration did something wrong?
- save_ferris 7y ago
  This is disingenuous. Q loves to push conspiracy theories like the “deep state” using questions like “what if?”, speculating that the truth is around the corner, etc. Q hasn’t even really offered any serious evidence on who they are, leading some to speculate that Q is a Russian persona masquerading as a renegade US intelligence operative. As long as that possibility is as plausible as what they put out to the world, they have no credibility.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- slouch 7y ago
  Telling people that Hillary Clinton's passport is going to be revoked pending her arrest is not just asking questions.
  - roywiggins 7y ago
    The sort of questions that come up in qanon circles are "when will Hillary be thrown into a gulag and tried by a military tribunal for her many crimes against children, and who will do it?" Just asking questions, you see...
  - nkozyra 7y ago
    Or that JFK Jr. is walking around waiting to pounce on the deep state. This is mass hysteria.
baddox 7y ago
Extremists motivated by true claims are also a threat.

Not sure why you would bring up Epstein, an actual monster, in the context of PizzaGate which was clearly dangerous nonsense.

rasengan 7y ago
The responder likely brought up Epstein given that he was front and center in the discussion of PizzaGate as it erupted as were the Clintons, Podestas, Marina Abromovic among others. If you have the time to look into this conspiracy, there are interesting links that should absolutely be explored and understood more. Edit: I was downvoted and while I don’t like discussing meta actions, I was wondering if anyone could provide compelling arguments as to why they did so. Sex trafficking little children is abhorrent and wrong.
murph-almighty 7y ago
I don't subscribe to Pizzagate, but I suppose it's because the stories around both are _similar_ (international cabal of abusers), it's just that one was fake and a long term play to try to scare people out of voting for Hillary Clinton.
- pacoWebConsult 7y ago
  Were the Podesta emails fake? How do you fake DKIM?
  - Sebguer 7y ago
    No, it's just that sane and rational people realize that the emails are just old people conversing and not proof of an insane conspiracy.
  - slouch 7y ago
    Are you about to bring up the "pedophile code words" conspiracy theory about those emails on Hackernews?
    - pacoWebConsult 7y ago
      I'm sure "pizza-related handkerchief map" was just a typo on John's behalf... Maybe he was on ambien when he was asking if he’ll do better playing dominos on cheese than on pasta?
      - slouch 7y ago
        Did he type that at all? Did you leave a handkerchief 09-02-2014 From: Susan Sandler To: John Podesta The realtor found a handkerchief (I think it has a map that seems pizza-related. Is it yorus? They can send it if you want. I know you’re busy, so feel free not to respond if it’s not yours or you don’t want it. 09-04-2014 From: John Podesta To: Susan Sandler It's mine, but not worth worrying about.
        pacoWebConsult 7y ago
        Oh he didn't send it, but receiving it and not saying anything about the nonsense someone sent is just as suspicious. The dominos on cheese comment is veritably him, though. But clearly nothing is going on and anyone that brings it up must be a domestic terrorist.
        slouch 7y ago
        Wrong again, that was Herb Sandler. Today is the first day that I read any of these emails, and I already know more than you about them. Why am I here pointing out your misunderstandings of the facts? Shouldn't you have become a steward of the facts before unraveling your thoughts in this thread?
  - chaosite 7y ago
    The Podesta e-mails were not fake (at least as far as I know), but they were out-of-context view into the cynical world of running a campaign. The idea that the Clinton campaign was using "pizza" as a code-word for child pornography, and that the basement of a Washington DC pizza place (which had no basement) was used as a hub for an international child smuggling operation, aka pizzagate, is absolutely fake.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
jerf 7y ago
A month ago, you would have said "Not sure why you would bring up Epstein; he's old news and did his time years ago." A year or so ago, you would have said "Not sure why you would bring up Epstein, he's old news and did his time years ago, and what's with these weird conspiracy theories about some harmless-looking club for people with too much money to play make-believe dress up at each other every so often? I had to google to even find that much." The truth of the whole thing is beyond me. But the first derivative of this stuff is disturbing. It may only be a small amount so far, but it's significant enough stuff that that's a problem even so.
- duxup 7y ago
  Do you feel Pizzagate is real?
  - jerf 7y ago
    What I feel doesn't matter. What matters is the truth. I don't know that the whole thing is true, but the odds that it's "just" Epstein and NXVIM (itself a rather disturbingly large operation, if you read about the court cases, albeit not exactly an unprecedented one; "sex cult" is almost a redundant phrase, if you look at the history of such things, in that cults almost always involve "weird sex stuff"; the weird thing about this one is who was involved rather than its nature) strike me as low. Whether it's just a bit bigger or way bigger, heck if I know. My understanding of my ignorance grows every year, and sometimes it seems like that's all that really does, despite my continuing to acquire "facts" over time. But I do know that in terms of understanding this sort of thing, you can't get anywhere by discarding true signal. Epstein and NXVIM are real, and that needs to be grappled with.
    - duxup 7y ago
      >you can't get anywhere by discarding true signal. What does that mean?
      - jerf 7y ago
        Sorry; sort of referencing information theory and also the rationalism movement. One way of thinking about information is "the extent to which something is a surprise". The rationalists point out that you need to be sensitive to that. Dismissing NXVIM and Epstein today may seem easy, but the question is, would you have believed the truth about them before you heard it [1]? If not, that is a surprise to you, real information, real signal, and you shouldn't discard it. It does not mean that the only logical conclusion is to believe Pizzagate must be true in its entirity!!!11!1. But it does mean you have something to grapple with, a strong signal that your previous model is false in some manner. Brains are lazy and take least effort paths, and the least effort path is just to ignore that there was a contradiction, but your really shouldn't do that. For myself and my priors, Pizzagate as a whole is a bit much to swallow. But "Epstein and NXVIM are the tip of an iceberg, albeit one much smaller than Pizzagate" is not at all. As I alluded to earlier, there's plenty of history that would support that no problem. Read accounts of cults and what they were like to live in from those who escaped, for instance. Human psychology has some very strange, yet weirdly popular, corner cases in it, especially weird ones around group behavior. I do not understand them either intuitively or intellectually, I can not explain them, but clearly they exist. [1]: Bearing in mind that Epstein today is still just somewhat well-sourced allegations with a lot of prior reason to believe they are plausible even just from the mainstream news reports of the past including public knowledge of related past convictions, but that NXVIM has been through court cases and some verdicts have been reached, though I believe they are ongoing overall.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
el_cujo 7y ago
I don't think anyone doubts Epstein's guilt at this point. The conspiracy angle is more about who else among the "world elite" joined him in his crimes and tried to cover them up.

pacoWebConsult 7y ago

It's concerning that the QAnon Movement is labeled as a threat, considering his main message is to encourage people to just ask questions and hold the government accountable for collaborating with the UK and Italy intel communities in order to spy on US citizens. This is confirmed factual information, all online at qmap.pub, but Q just asks questions and anons dig for information? Why is open source intelligence a bad thing? I understand this is a problem when people storm businesses and break into places, but outside of that how is it a threat unless Q is actually on target and the intelligence community and Obama administration did something wrong?

save_ferris 7y ago
This is disingenuous. Q loves to push conspiracy theories like the “deep state” using questions like “what if?”, speculating that the truth is around the corner, etc. Q hasn’t even really offered any serious evidence on who they are, leading some to speculate that Q is a Russian persona masquerading as a renegade US intelligence operative. As long as that possibility is as plausible as what they put out to the world, they have no credibility.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
slouch 7y ago
Telling people that Hillary Clinton's passport is going to be revoked pending her arrest is not just asking questions.
- roywiggins 7y ago
  The sort of questions that come up in qanon circles are "when will Hillary be thrown into a gulag and tried by a military tribunal for her many crimes against children, and who will do it?" Just asking questions, you see...
- nkozyra 7y ago
  Or that JFK Jr. is walking around waiting to pounce on the deep state. This is mass hysteria.

baddox 7y ago

Extremists motivated by true claims are also a threat.