4 ms·

Slowly PHP is converging to what Java has been like 15 years ago.

k__ 7y ago
True. I'm also seeing that with JavaScript and TypeScript. TS feels very C# like. Luckily there seem to be counter movements with languages like Reason, ClojureScript and PureScript.
- muglug 7y ago
  > TS feels very C# like. Probably because they were created by the same person!
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - benbristow 7y ago
    And both supported by the same company!
- oblio 7y ago
  We're basically getting a huge Algol mono-language. C is not really moving, but C++ is also converging towards this Java++ language. Java itself is finally moving. C# is a bit ahead of the curve, because it can follow the trail blazed by F#. PHP started moving towards Java back from when PHP5 was introduced. Javascript is moving towards Typescript which is following C#'s lead. Python is kind of the only non-Algol mainstream hold out. Did I miss any of the big enterprise languages? :-?
  - babyloneleven 7y ago
    How is Python non-Algol?
    - oblio 7y ago
      How is Python Algol-based or inspired? I've never seen anyone describing as such, did Guido ever say it was?
      - cygx 7y ago
        https://web.archive.org/web/20070501105422/http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/gvr-interview https://web.archive.org/web/20070501105422/http://www.amk.ca... It's in the Algol family, mostly indirectly through ABC, Modula-2 and 3, C, ... Per the interview, string slicing actually came directly from Algol-68 (and Icon).
  - Avamander 7y ago
    plpgsql and similar?
    - oblio 7y ago
      SQL you mean? True, but that's more of a DSL. In the same vein you'd have HTML, CSS, but I was talking about general purpose programming languages.
      - Avamander 7y ago
        No, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/pgSQL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/pgSQL is not SQL.
  - plopz 7y ago
    How is Javascript moving towards Typescript?
    - k__ 7y ago
      I don't know either. TS was influenced mainly by C# at the start, then from FlowType and currently it's mainly influenced by ECMAScript. So to me it feels like the other way around.
hrktb 7y ago
It somewhat ends up in a best of both world scenario though. Java 15 years ago (in my opinion) was so strict and rigid and abstract interface jokes were writing themselves in real life. PHP was in a fairly dark (though very lively) place as well. Here we get a pretty good deal, I guess time matters.
rawfan 7y ago
Except PHP already has some of the nicer features of Scala (like traits) and is more flexible (you can write Java-like code, but don't have to).
chenning 7y ago
What's really crazy to think about is how much flak Java took for YEARS upon YEARS from a rather non-trivial number of developers, managers, and media. It was ruthless at times. Looking back, it was pathetic. Now, all of a sudden, look at where we are. We're seeing all these not-Java languages looking more and more like Java, and conversely Java starting to impersonate the not-Javas. Weird. You have to give the team behind Java credit for pushing forward in spite of this. There's a real lesson to be learned here.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  I don't understand why people say PHP is like Java. There's very little in common between the two. Because PHP has types? Lots of languages have types. Why in the world are people comparing PHP and Java?
  - skore 7y ago
    I think it's mostly because of PHP frameworks. From my experience with PHP (and, admittedly, not very much experience with Java), I got the impression that a lot of the PHP Framework developers read all the "state-of-the-art" Java literature on how you should build software and then they implemented that in PHP. They just ignored the fact that Java is compiled which makes all the layers of abstraction less of an issue whereas PHP is interpreted at runtime* hence why there are few high traffic websites on PHP that don't have at least four layers of caching. * Yes, I know this is getting better with every version, opcache getting a lot of attention in the last few minor releases and all that, but there is only so much optimization you can do with dozens and dozens of layers of factories and services. My guess is that it does a LOT more for "simple" software like WordPress and less for, say, Symfony based projects.

k__ 7y ago

True. I'm also seeing that with JavaScript and TypeScript. TS feels very C# like. Luckily there seem to be counter movements with languages like Reason, ClojureScript and PureScript.

muglug 7y ago
> TS feels very C# like. Probably because they were created by the same person!
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- benbristow 7y ago
  And both supported by the same company!
oblio 7y ago
We're basically getting a huge Algol mono-language. C is not really moving, but C++ is also converging towards this Java++ language. Java itself is finally moving. C# is a bit ahead of the curve, because it can follow the trail blazed by F#. PHP started moving towards Java back from when PHP5 was introduced. Javascript is moving towards Typescript which is following C#'s lead. Python is kind of the only non-Algol mainstream hold out. Did I miss any of the big enterprise languages? :-?
- babyloneleven 7y ago
  How is Python non-Algol?
  - oblio 7y ago
    How is Python Algol-based or inspired? I've never seen anyone describing as such, did Guido ever say it was?
    - cygx 7y ago
      https://web.archive.org/web/20070501105422/http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/gvr-interview https://web.archive.org/web/20070501105422/http://www.amk.ca... It's in the Algol family, mostly indirectly through ABC, Modula-2 and 3, C, ... Per the interview, string slicing actually came directly from Algol-68 (and Icon).
- Avamander 7y ago
  plpgsql and similar?
  - oblio 7y ago
    SQL you mean? True, but that's more of a DSL. In the same vein you'd have HTML, CSS, but I was talking about general purpose programming languages.
    - Avamander 7y ago
      No, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/pgSQL https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/pgSQL is not SQL.
- plopz 7y ago
  How is Javascript moving towards Typescript?
  - k__ 7y ago
    I don't know either. TS was influenced mainly by C# at the start, then from FlowType and currently it's mainly influenced by ECMAScript. So to me it feels like the other way around.

hrktb 7y ago

It somewhat ends up in a best of both world scenario though. Java 15 years ago (in my opinion) was so strict and rigid and abstract interface jokes were writing themselves in real life. PHP was in a fairly dark (though very lively) place as well. Here we get a pretty good deal, I guess time matters.

rawfan 7y ago

Except PHP already has some of the nicer features of Scala (like traits) and is more flexible (you can write Java-like code, but don't have to).

chenning 7y ago

What's really crazy to think about is how much flak Java took for YEARS upon YEARS from a rather non-trivial number of developers, managers, and media. It was ruthless at times. Looking back, it was pathetic. Now, all of a sudden, look at where we are. We're seeing all these not-Java languages looking more and more like Java, and conversely Java starting to impersonate the not-Javas. Weird. You have to give the team behind Java credit for pushing forward in spite of this. There's a real lesson to be learned here.

celticmusic 7y ago
I don't understand why people say PHP is like Java. There's very little in common between the two. Because PHP has types? Lots of languages have types. Why in the world are people comparing PHP and Java?
- skore 7y ago
  I think it's mostly because of PHP frameworks. From my experience with PHP (and, admittedly, not very much experience with Java), I got the impression that a lot of the PHP Framework developers read all the "state-of-the-art" Java literature on how you should build software and then they implemented that in PHP. They just ignored the fact that Java is compiled which makes all the layers of abstraction less of an issue whereas PHP is interpreted at runtime* hence why there are few high traffic websites on PHP that don't have at least four layers of caching. * Yes, I know this is getting better with every version, opcache getting a lot of attention in the last few minor releases and all that, but there is only so much optimization you can do with dozens and dozens of layers of factories and services. My guess is that it does a LOT more for "simple" software like WordPress and less for, say, Symfony based projects.