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The theory sounds great. But why then, our streets are lined with homeless, and our nations are stricken with poverty? Could it be that the only real aim and mo

by ypcx 7y ago

The theory sounds great. But why then, our streets are lined with homeless, and our nations are stricken with poverty? Could it be that the only real aim and motivation of market traders is to earn money? One day, maybe.... when these are replaced with DAOs on the blockchain. But until then it's the Wolf of Wall Street.

grenoire 7y ago
The markets on which financial instruments are traded are effectively separate from the ones where policy decisions are being made on, such as labour, vocational education, and healthcare. It's not the derivatives trading that is problematic, it's the market inefficiencies not being resolved by governments.
JDiculous 7y ago
Because having homeless people lining our streets on our commutes to/from our jobs is a daily reminder that if we don't work hard enough to increase corporate profits, then our bosses might lay us off and we'll end up like them. That or moral apathy. At some point in the 80s we decided that markets driven by business profits should dictate every aspect of society. I imagine 100 years from now they'll look back at today in disgust.
- assblaster 7y ago
  100 years after Communism burst on the scene, we currently look at that development with disgust. Right now most people have access to abundant food, cellphone in every pocket, access to a wealth of information, access to transportation, incredible medical advances. I can't imagine that the progress we've made would be scorned. Like other market driven forces, bad players will not be rewarded as information about them increases. However, if information is not increased because of something like a company buying a newspaper so investigative threats can be used against politicians to avoid information gathering, then we have problems. This is more crony capitalism than just capitalism.
  - annabellish 7y ago
    "What we have now is the bad kind of capitalism! There's a different, good kind of capitalism which in theory does all these great things!" is essentially the "communism works great in theory" argument. 100%, both systems are great theories. However, the last few hundred years of actually trying to implement capitalism has "most people have access to abundant food, cellphone in every pocket, access to a wealth of information, access to transportation, incredible medical advances.", if by "most people" you mean "possible a majority of people in the richest countries in the world". Unfortunately, the cost of that is that we've done irreparable damage to our environment, are causing the worst Great Extinction ever, and have caused a climate crisis that may cause us to go extinct.
    - assblaster 7y ago
      Hundreds of millions of people have been brought out of poverty, outside the United States.
      - benaadams 7y ago
        That's due to technology; not capitalism, they aren't the same thing. A huge amount of R&D happens in academia which isn't capitalism; but then is monetised by capitalism (but doesn't reinvest it back into the academia)
        hpkuarg 7y ago
        Converting that R&D into actual products and services, I'd wager, is quite difficult without a profit incentive. It's like the difference between having a great idea for a startup and actually turning it into a functioning company. Without invoking too many absolutes, there's so much bullshit involved in the latter that people doing the former aren't willing to put up with. It's mostly two different kinds of people with two different skillsets.
        bumby 7y ago
        Doesn't capitalism either directly or indirectly fund that academic research? When I was in a university lab, all of my work was funded by private companies
- jmastrangelo 7y ago
  I find it funny that people scorn the pursuit of economic profits, but complain that the other "better" activities aren't given economic rewards. Ultimately "Corporate Profits" produce the economic value that people desperately want, and participating in the creation of something people want _should_ be a prerequisite for getting economic value in return.
  - JDiculous 7y ago
    I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. All I'm saying is that corporate profits shouldn't dictate every aspect of society. That's why sane countries have implemented things like universal healthcare and free primary/secondary education. I'm also proposing that in a wealthy first world country, perhaps nobody should have to go homeless. Crazy idea, I know. What have these "corporate profits" you worship ever done for homeless people?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
w56rjrtyu6ru 7y ago
You may find this article interesting: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
IanDrake 7y ago
Yes, the real aim and motivation of traders is to earn money and respect. What else should it be? Why pick on traders? I know a lot of developers making well into six figures. I hear them talking about getting 3 new graphics cards for their gaming rigs instead of how they worked at a soup kitchen. What is your point? That GS should be donating 100m to charity instead of reinvesting into their business? Where do you think that money goes? Workers will be paid to implement their plan and taxes will be paid on those wages. In fact about 40% of that 100m will eventually end up being paid in taxes.
- ypcx 7y ago
  I don't mean to pick on traders. Nominally it's a hard and honest job and money made is money deserved. The problem is that if I have a company [and this is a systemic example, no exceptions, see #1], and I allow (central-)bank "friendly" people on its board, so that we can receive as many low- or zero-interest loans (with open due date or refinancing at will, i.e. free money, printed freshly from thin air) from the bank, so that we can under-price, destroy and acquire all our competition, become a monopoly AND finance a massive lobbying power in the DC so that we can get laws passed which increase our profits (at the disadvantage of the citizen), you can bet all your savings that such system's demise is written in the fabric of space and time, because the most essential feedback loops (and the ones that you mention, the ones in the market, work in exactly the opposite way) in that system have been disabled and its just a runaway train without brakes. Buying laws starts and finances wars, relaxes food, water and environmental toxicity limits, enables false advertising, eventually raises taxes, enables trading of derivatives so detached from reality that a computer game pales in comparison, you name it. The days of this system are numbered and we should really speed up the development of trustless alternatives based on blockchain, or we're going to hit the wall really hard. #1 https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed-the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed...

by ypcx 7y ago

grenoire 7y ago

The markets on which financial instruments are traded are effectively separate from the ones where policy decisions are being made on, such as labour, vocational education, and healthcare. It's not the derivatives trading that is problematic, it's the market inefficiencies not being resolved by governments.

JDiculous 7y ago

Because having homeless people lining our streets on our commutes to/from our jobs is a daily reminder that if we don't work hard enough to increase corporate profits, then our bosses might lay us off and we'll end up like them. That or moral apathy. At some point in the 80s we decided that markets driven by business profits should dictate every aspect of society. I imagine 100 years from now they'll look back at today in disgust.

assblaster 7y ago
100 years after Communism burst on the scene, we currently look at that development with disgust. Right now most people have access to abundant food, cellphone in every pocket, access to a wealth of information, access to transportation, incredible medical advances. I can't imagine that the progress we've made would be scorned. Like other market driven forces, bad players will not be rewarded as information about them increases. However, if information is not increased because of something like a company buying a newspaper so investigative threats can be used against politicians to avoid information gathering, then we have problems. This is more crony capitalism than just capitalism.
- annabellish 7y ago
  "What we have now is the bad kind of capitalism! There's a different, good kind of capitalism which in theory does all these great things!" is essentially the "communism works great in theory" argument. 100%, both systems are great theories. However, the last few hundred years of actually trying to implement capitalism has "most people have access to abundant food, cellphone in every pocket, access to a wealth of information, access to transportation, incredible medical advances.", if by "most people" you mean "possible a majority of people in the richest countries in the world". Unfortunately, the cost of that is that we've done irreparable damage to our environment, are causing the worst Great Extinction ever, and have caused a climate crisis that may cause us to go extinct.
  - assblaster 7y ago
    Hundreds of millions of people have been brought out of poverty, outside the United States.
    - benaadams 7y ago
      That's due to technology; not capitalism, they aren't the same thing. A huge amount of R&D happens in academia which isn't capitalism; but then is monetised by capitalism (but doesn't reinvest it back into the academia)
      - hpkuarg 7y ago
        Converting that R&D into actual products and services, I'd wager, is quite difficult without a profit incentive. It's like the difference between having a great idea for a startup and actually turning it into a functioning company. Without invoking too many absolutes, there's so much bullshit involved in the latter that people doing the former aren't willing to put up with. It's mostly two different kinds of people with two different skillsets.
      - bumby 7y ago
        Doesn't capitalism either directly or indirectly fund that academic research? When I was in a university lab, all of my work was funded by private companies
jmastrangelo 7y ago
I find it funny that people scorn the pursuit of economic profits, but complain that the other "better" activities aren't given economic rewards. Ultimately "Corporate Profits" produce the economic value that people desperately want, and participating in the creation of something people want _should_ be a prerequisite for getting economic value in return.
- JDiculous 7y ago
  I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. All I'm saying is that corporate profits shouldn't dictate every aspect of society. That's why sane countries have implemented things like universal healthcare and free primary/secondary education. I'm also proposing that in a wealthy first world country, perhaps nobody should have to go homeless. Crazy idea, I know. What have these "corporate profits" you worship ever done for homeless people?

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

w56rjrtyu6ru 7y ago

You may find this article interesting: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

IanDrake 7y ago

Yes, the real aim and motivation of traders is to earn money and respect. What else should it be? Why pick on traders? I know a lot of developers making well into six figures. I hear them talking about getting 3 new graphics cards for their gaming rigs instead of how they worked at a soup kitchen. What is your point? That GS should be donating 100m to charity instead of reinvesting into their business? Where do you think that money goes? Workers will be paid to implement their plan and taxes will be paid on those wages. In fact about 40% of that 100m will eventually end up being paid in taxes.

ypcx 7y ago
I don't mean to pick on traders. Nominally it's a hard and honest job and money made is money deserved. The problem is that if I have a company [and this is a systemic example, no exceptions, see #1], and I allow (central-)bank "friendly" people on its board, so that we can receive as many low- or zero-interest loans (with open due date or refinancing at will, i.e. free money, printed freshly from thin air) from the bank, so that we can under-price, destroy and acquire all our competition, become a monopoly AND finance a massive lobbying power in the DC so that we can get laws passed which increase our profits (at the disadvantage of the citizen), you can bet all your savings that such system's demise is written in the fabric of space and time, because the most essential feedback loops (and the ones that you mention, the ones in the market, work in exactly the opposite way) in that system have been disabled and its just a runaway train without brakes. Buying laws starts and finances wars, relaxes food, water and environmental toxicity limits, enables false advertising, eventually raises taxes, enables trading of derivatives so detached from reality that a computer game pales in comparison, you name it. The days of this system are numbered and we should really speed up the development of trustless alternatives based on blockchain, or we're going to hit the wall really hard. #1 https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed-the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354-500-revealed...