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Developers have a lot of power (because they do the actual work and have all the power over how something is actually implemented in the end) and share a lot of

by arrrg 7y ago

Developers have a lot of power (because they do the actual work and have all the power over how something is actually implemented in the end) and share a lot of responsibility. Additionally they are often the only ones who can be aware of certain ethical issues and concerns. If they don’t bring it up others might not be able to even perceive the ethical issue because it comes down to implementation details. I would agree that that’s not really the case here (since grading Siri using people means hiring people and that’s immediately a bigger fish), but in general everyone should keep ethics on their mind. In the end I would say that everyone has to be made aware of and always keep in mind ethical issues since they can crop up everywhere, also places where a certain person has the most insight and others might overlook the ethical issue. It’s a shared responsibility. I’m sometimes shocked about how careless developers approach ethical issues and since they are the one actually writing the code they can do a lot of harm. Since we live in this capitalist hellscape all of this is unlikely to have any effect anyway …

AstralStorm 7y ago
Developers have no power other than quit, which is not always financially possible. And as we are well paid, there are enough replacements. But not necessarily always good job offers. (And word gets out. You can get informally blacklisted.) The only other option, still risking the job, is whistleblowing. That potentially also breaks NDA and employment contracts. We have no power over deadlines (cutting privacy features), budget, priorities or vetoing unethical ideas of product owners or marketing.
- 9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
  The vast majority of mass surveillance tech is programmed in Silicon Valley. These are the most privileged and intelligent programmers out there, they absolutely do have power, or at minimum a choice, to quit and get another well paying moral job.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    Silicon Valley, where developers live in trailer parks? (San Jose for example.) Silicon Valley, where the ethos is to get rich quick by accepting personal degradation and eschewing morality?
- germanier 7y ago
  Developers always have to power to just not implement the feature. If you choose to work on such features, remember it's a choice you have made. You may come to the conclusion that your personal gains outweigh the damage you create to other people but it's still your responsibility. You can't delegate that away to sleep better at night.
  - AstralStorm 7y ago
    The feature will get assigned to someone else, be implemented and you will be fined in performance review if not outright fired for not doing your job. If you do other things on that project making it better, you're still complicit. Your only bet is switching projects if you want to stay at the company, which would be harder most of the time. (Because sociopaths rule.) There are more effective ways to fight it, they're not by refusing orders. You're not deciding someone's life here nor playing God and decisions get reversed with damage being mitigated if any.
    - germanier 7y ago
      So the argument has now shifted from "managers are forcing it on innocent developers" to "devs with no conscience are going it to develop anyway so who cares if I am to one doing the work?". This is important to recognise. There have to be developers willing to implement those features in the end. Without them every would fall into crumbles. Why does nobody feel the shame being one of them? I'm not seeing any of that. Just shrugs at being a mere pawn in a large game and trying to gain as much personal benefit out of it as possible.
- arrrg 7y ago
  You immediately assume evil intent and a complete unwillingness to cooperate. And, yes, in this capitalist hellscape of ours that’s a very real possibility. But don’t just assume that bringing up ethical issues others might not even be aware of isn’t a fruitful endeavor at all. You sketched out the extreme case, not every case.

by arrrg 7y ago

AstralStorm 7y ago

Developers have no power other than quit, which is not always financially possible. And as we are well paid, there are enough replacements. But not necessarily always good job offers. (And word gets out. You can get informally blacklisted.) The only other option, still risking the job, is whistleblowing. That potentially also breaks NDA and employment contracts. We have no power over deadlines (cutting privacy features), budget, priorities or vetoing unethical ideas of product owners or marketing.

9HZZRfNlpR 7y ago
The vast majority of mass surveillance tech is programmed in Silicon Valley. These are the most privileged and intelligent programmers out there, they absolutely do have power, or at minimum a choice, to quit and get another well paying moral job.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  Silicon Valley, where developers live in trailer parks? (San Jose for example.) Silicon Valley, where the ethos is to get rich quick by accepting personal degradation and eschewing morality?
germanier 7y ago
Developers always have to power to just not implement the feature. If you choose to work on such features, remember it's a choice you have made. You may come to the conclusion that your personal gains outweigh the damage you create to other people but it's still your responsibility. You can't delegate that away to sleep better at night.
- AstralStorm 7y ago
  The feature will get assigned to someone else, be implemented and you will be fined in performance review if not outright fired for not doing your job. If you do other things on that project making it better, you're still complicit. Your only bet is switching projects if you want to stay at the company, which would be harder most of the time. (Because sociopaths rule.) There are more effective ways to fight it, they're not by refusing orders. You're not deciding someone's life here nor playing God and decisions get reversed with damage being mitigated if any.
  - germanier 7y ago
    So the argument has now shifted from "managers are forcing it on innocent developers" to "devs with no conscience are going it to develop anyway so who cares if I am to one doing the work?". This is important to recognise. There have to be developers willing to implement those features in the end. Without them every would fall into crumbles. Why does nobody feel the shame being one of them? I'm not seeing any of that. Just shrugs at being a mere pawn in a large game and trying to gain as much personal benefit out of it as possible.
arrrg 7y ago
You immediately assume evil intent and a complete unwillingness to cooperate. And, yes, in this capitalist hellscape of ours that’s a very real possibility. But don’t just assume that bringing up ethical issues others might not even be aware of isn’t a fruitful endeavor at all. You sketched out the extreme case, not every case.