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Im having a hard time figuring out what people thought was going to happen with renewable energy other than destroying woodlands and other open space to collect

Im having a hard time figuring out what people thought was going to happen with renewable energy other than destroying woodlands and other open space to collect energy.

petee 7y ago
Well wind has a much smaller footprint, and can at least be embedded within the woods without razing the whole thing. The three main issues it seems are visibility, flashing shadows, and the lack of wind
- tathougies 7y ago
  That's not what i meant. I am mainly shocked at the publics general failure to understand human nature and its desire to extract money when incentivized to do so. I dont disagree that wind can have a lower footprint in terms of landspace taken but if solar is more efficient and less expensive then at some point when it becomes long enough lasting to be profitable, then of course those with forests will convert them to solar farms. This was not unforeseeable
  - xamuel 7y ago
    You don't even need the solar panels themselves in order to see the effects of perverse incentives. The Kyoto Protocol defines "bioenergy" (energy produced by burning wood) as carbon neutral. As a result, in the EU, they're literally burning up forests for energy, under the banner of environmentalism. https://news.mongabay.com/2019/03/eu-sued-to-stop-burning-trees-for-energy-its-not-carbon-neutral-plaintiffs/ https://news.mongabay.com/2019/03/eu-sued-to-stop-burning-tr...
- KirinDave 7y ago
  Large wind turbines are much less sustainable and higher maintenance. They're really only sensible in small scales, where their other disadvantages go away, or when no other option is viable.
freehunter 7y ago
I don’t think anyone heard “let’s use renewable energy” and immediately thought “of course that means cutting down a bunch of trees”. If you did, I’d love to hear why this is such an inevitable consequence that it’s worth pointing out how inevitable it is as opposed to putting solar panels literally anywhere else that doesn’t have trees.
- tathougies 7y ago
  I explain it in my comment below. But ultimately its because this is human nature
  - KirinDave 7y ago
    It's certainly the nature of the culture we inherited. You can look at alternative cultures folks have maintained where they don't spread out as rapidly as possible and have some base notion of conservation and environmentalism and it seems like those folks have a pretty good situation too. Ever consider re-prioritizing and leading by example?
    - tathougies 7y ago
      What about understanding how the world works makes me automatically part of the problem? I do disagree that there are other cultures with a 'better' notion. Culture matters, but nkt that much in the long run when theres status at stake
      - KirinDave 7y ago
        > What about understanding how the world works makes me automatically part of the problem? Pretend, for just a moment, that my proposition was true (as I obviously believe it to be). In that case, you've identified yourself as part of the problem. Especially so because you suggest that your prioritization is inevitable and therefore must be assumed. > I do disagree that there are other cultures with a 'better' notion. We can look at the development patterns of some other nations. Not all are so spread out, and not all believe that environmentalism is pointless. > Culture matters, but nkt that much in the long run when theres status at stake There's lots of ways to get status.

Im having a hard time figuring out what people thought was going to happen with renewable energy other than destroying woodlands and other open space to collect energy.

petee 7y ago

Well wind has a much smaller footprint, and can at least be embedded within the woods without razing the whole thing. The three main issues it seems are visibility, flashing shadows, and the lack of wind

tathougies 7y ago
That's not what i meant. I am mainly shocked at the publics general failure to understand human nature and its desire to extract money when incentivized to do so. I dont disagree that wind can have a lower footprint in terms of landspace taken but if solar is more efficient and less expensive then at some point when it becomes long enough lasting to be profitable, then of course those with forests will convert them to solar farms. This was not unforeseeable
- xamuel 7y ago
  You don't even need the solar panels themselves in order to see the effects of perverse incentives. The Kyoto Protocol defines "bioenergy" (energy produced by burning wood) as carbon neutral. As a result, in the EU, they're literally burning up forests for energy, under the banner of environmentalism. https://news.mongabay.com/2019/03/eu-sued-to-stop-burning-trees-for-energy-its-not-carbon-neutral-plaintiffs/ https://news.mongabay.com/2019/03/eu-sued-to-stop-burning-tr...
KirinDave 7y ago
Large wind turbines are much less sustainable and higher maintenance. They're really only sensible in small scales, where their other disadvantages go away, or when no other option is viable.

freehunter 7y ago

I don’t think anyone heard “let’s use renewable energy” and immediately thought “of course that means cutting down a bunch of trees”. If you did, I’d love to hear why this is such an inevitable consequence that it’s worth pointing out how inevitable it is as opposed to putting solar panels literally anywhere else that doesn’t have trees.

tathougies 7y ago
I explain it in my comment below. But ultimately its because this is human nature
- KirinDave 7y ago
  It's certainly the nature of the culture we inherited. You can look at alternative cultures folks have maintained where they don't spread out as rapidly as possible and have some base notion of conservation and environmentalism and it seems like those folks have a pretty good situation too. Ever consider re-prioritizing and leading by example?
  - tathougies 7y ago
    What about understanding how the world works makes me automatically part of the problem? I do disagree that there are other cultures with a 'better' notion. Culture matters, but nkt that much in the long run when theres status at stake
    - KirinDave 7y ago
      > What about understanding how the world works makes me automatically part of the problem? Pretend, for just a moment, that my proposition was true (as I obviously believe it to be). In that case, you've identified yourself as part of the problem. Especially so because you suggest that your prioritization is inevitable and therefore must be assumed. > I do disagree that there are other cultures with a 'better' notion. We can look at the development patterns of some other nations. Not all are so spread out, and not all believe that environmentalism is pointless. > Culture matters, but nkt that much in the long run when theres status at stake There's lots of ways to get status.