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Personally: having learned of their scummy practices, I will not be supporting DoorDash or Instacart ever again, regardless of whether they change policy now in

Personally: having learned of their scummy practices, I will not be supporting DoorDash or Instacart ever again, regardless of whether they change policy now in response to being exposed. Why so unforgiving? Because you can't deter unethical behavior by merely asking for a perpetrator to discontinue the unethical behavior if/when exposed. The expected value of a penalty needs to exceed the financial reward of the behavior it is meant to punish. Furthermore, I don't trust companies who are likely to be unethical the moment someone isn't looking.

lancesells 7y ago
I just did the same with Amazon since they have the same tip practices as DoorDash. That and reading about the Ring Alarm system being sold by law enforcement it just put me over the edge. Can I avoid AWS? No, but I can certainly not spend my own money directly on any of their services.
- maksimum 7y ago
  Have you been tipping on your AWS bill? Or the package delivery workers? (What does Amazon have to do with this?)
  - nvr219 7y ago
    I'm an aws dev, if you like route 53 please check out my pateron link thanks for your support ;-)
jmeyer2k 7y ago
I drove for DoorDash and I absolutely prefer the guaranteed amount with them keeping the tips. First of all, people tip beforehand so it's not based on quality of service anyway. Second of all, it makes DoorDash a steady stream of income instead of hoping that you'll be tipped enough. Most people don't tip and if the tip is large enough, you do receive the tip.
- femto113 7y ago
  I think this wasn't really a bad deal for the drivers, but it was essentially a lie to the consumers: they think tipping will make a difference for the driver, but instead it only makes a difference to DoorDash. What's really needed is a minimum wage that applies to everyone, regardless of employee status.
milesskorpen 7y ago
By their scummy practices, are you referring to their tipping policy? I'm not sure I fully understand the backlash. Yes, the tipping policy didn't meet people's expectations ... but it seems almost exactly the same s how tipping + wages work for wait staff in restaurants (where restaurants are allowed to pay them less than minimum wage, as long as the difference is offset by tips). Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers? A reasonable argument is that tips should always go direct to the staff and they should also at least make minimum wage, but that'd represent a huge change from the status quo and people aren't freaking out about how restaurant staff are compensated, so it seems like this hits a different emotional chord for some reason. Maybe it's more evil-seeming coming from a large tech-ish company rather than SMBs?
- advarckcal 7y ago
  But this tip goes towards minimum wage is illegal in California where all these companies are based.
- Bjartr 7y ago
  > Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers? Personally, I am not okay with the law. An employer should pay a living wage. That said, I'm biased because I would vastly prefer to avoid the anxiety I feel around figuring out the right amount to tip such that I don't feel scummy nor taken advantage of. I went there to eat some food, not feel anxious.
- xenocyon 7y ago
  Firstly, restaurants are not allowed to pay "less than minimum wage" in any US state, though some states have two separate minimum wage rates for tipped and untipped employees. (NB: all west coast states in the US have just one minimum wage that applies for all employees, tipped or not.) But more fundamentally Instacart and Doordash deceived consumers in a way restaurants don't. Say minimum wage for tipped employees is $4, a restaurant pays a $5 wage and I tip $2, I expect that the staff gets the $5 wage and the $2 tip (whether pooled or otherwise). If the restauranteur uses my $2 tip to cut wages below $5, then that would be illegal and outrageous. The minimum wage amount of $4 does not even enter into the calculation in this example, except defining the floor for the restaurant to pay its tipped employees.

lancesells 7y ago

I just did the same with Amazon since they have the same tip practices as DoorDash. That and reading about the Ring Alarm system being sold by law enforcement it just put me over the edge. Can I avoid AWS? No, but I can certainly not spend my own money directly on any of their services.

maksimum 7y ago
Have you been tipping on your AWS bill? Or the package delivery workers? (What does Amazon have to do with this?)
- nvr219 7y ago
  I'm an aws dev, if you like route 53 please check out my pateron link thanks for your support ;-)

jmeyer2k 7y ago

I drove for DoorDash and I absolutely prefer the guaranteed amount with them keeping the tips. First of all, people tip beforehand so it's not based on quality of service anyway. Second of all, it makes DoorDash a steady stream of income instead of hoping that you'll be tipped enough. Most people don't tip and if the tip is large enough, you do receive the tip.

femto113 7y ago
I think this wasn't really a bad deal for the drivers, but it was essentially a lie to the consumers: they think tipping will make a difference for the driver, but instead it only makes a difference to DoorDash. What's really needed is a minimum wage that applies to everyone, regardless of employee status.

milesskorpen 7y ago

By their scummy practices, are you referring to their tipping policy? I'm not sure I fully understand the backlash. Yes, the tipping policy didn't meet people's expectations ... but it seems almost exactly the same s how tipping + wages work for wait staff in restaurants (where restaurants are allowed to pay them less than minimum wage, as long as the difference is offset by tips). Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers? A reasonable argument is that tips should always go direct to the staff and they should also at least make minimum wage, but that'd represent a huge change from the status quo and people aren't freaking out about how restaurant staff are compensated, so it seems like this hits a different emotional chord for some reason. Maybe it's more evil-seeming coming from a large tech-ish company rather than SMBs?

advarckcal 7y ago
But this tip goes towards minimum wage is illegal in California where all these companies are based.
Bjartr 7y ago
> Why are we okay with this policy, which is enshrined in law, for restaurant wait staff but not for delivery drivers? Personally, I am not okay with the law. An employer should pay a living wage. That said, I'm biased because I would vastly prefer to avoid the anxiety I feel around figuring out the right amount to tip such that I don't feel scummy nor taken advantage of. I went there to eat some food, not feel anxious.
xenocyon 7y ago
Firstly, restaurants are not allowed to pay "less than minimum wage" in any US state, though some states have two separate minimum wage rates for tipped and untipped employees. (NB: all west coast states in the US have just one minimum wage that applies for all employees, tipped or not.) But more fundamentally Instacart and Doordash deceived consumers in a way restaurants don't. Say minimum wage for tipped employees is $4, a restaurant pays a $5 wage and I tip $2, I expect that the staff gets the $5 wage and the $2 tip (whether pooled or otherwise). If the restauranteur uses my $2 tip to cut wages below $5, then that would be illegal and outrageous. The minimum wage amount of $4 does not even enter into the calculation in this example, except defining the floor for the restaurant to pay its tipped employees.