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California farmers are planting solar panels as water supplies dry up
- petee 7y agoAlbeit much smaller area, I see this a lot around Rhode Island. They are taking farms and woodlands and turning them into dusty dirt fields with just panels, its a sad state of affairs. I would love to see laws preventing destruction of woods, or otherwise fertile land, especially when wind power seems to be the way to go around here.
- davidw 7y agoI wonder if you could utilize a carbon tax to capture some of the complexity here, because it's not simple: * Removing woodland is not great. * On the other hand, more solar power over, say, coal, is a win for the environment. How much woodland will climate change destroy?
- everdev 7y agoSeems silly to do that, especially with so much open space, abandoned lots and rooftops. Goes to show you the tide is turning from environmentalism to capitalism.
- mandelbrotwurst 7y agoNot really a new trend...
- p1necone 7y agoIs it silly? You'd have to calculate the amount of CO2 sequestered by the destroyed woodland vs the amount output over time by whatever fossil fuel power generation could be replaced by the solar panels. I certainly don't know off the top of my head. Of course it would make much more sense to use already cleared land still - but maybe uncleared forest is much cheaper or something.
- im3w1l 7y agoIt's just way more efficient and uncomplicated to build large scale than to build a large number of small scale stuff. This shouldn't be surprising.
- Analemma_ 7y agoPeople are actually cutting down trees to put up solar farms? Do you have a citation for this? If it's unprofitable farmland that doesn't need development that's one thing, but I can't picture a utility actually clearing out a forest just to put solar panels up, that seems a tremendous waste of resources when there's so much open land elsewhere in the US.
- petee 7y agoThere are no articles written about it, usually it's simply driving around and suddenly seeing a field where there were woods. If you want to find historical satellite images, one area is on Plains Road near URI. Ironically, it is across the street from URI's empty turf fields (although they do use that for research)
- foobarian 7y agoI've seen a lot of solar panel installations around Massachusetts highways. It seems they got put up on otherwise unused open areas around the roads, such as clearings between the shoulder and the woods, or the area inside the clover leaf ramps. [1] [1] https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3127663,-71.3832247,557m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3127663,-71.3832247,557m/dat...
- petee 7y agoThat is a much better use of space, although I'm concerned that any shiny object near a roadway needs to be carefully aimed not to blind drivers (there is a certain gold-windowed building on 95/128 that comes to mind...) I do recall seeing more parking lots being fitted with a solar roof, and vehicle charging below...this probably should be the primary use of panels, shading otherwise blacktop parking lots
- tbabb 7y ago> I'm concerned that any shiny object near a roadway needs to be carefully aimed not to blind drivers We seem to deal with driving near the ocean and other bodies of water just fine.
- iso1337 7y agoNot to mention other cars have a lot of shiny surfaces too.
- petee 7y agoYes, but curved, not a large flat reflector. Huge difference
- petee 7y agoBig difference between a large flat reflector 20 feet away, and a uneven ocean surface, likely atleast 100 ft away... That said, at the right angle, no, its not just fine, the ocean reflects alot of sun, just like anything else.
- tathougies 7y agoIm having a hard time figuring out what people thought was going to happen with renewable energy other than destroying woodlands and other open space to collect energy.
- petee 7y agoWell wind has a much smaller footprint, and can at least be embedded within the woods without razing the whole thing. The three main issues it seems are visibility, flashing shadows, and the lack of wind
- tathougies 7y agoThat's not what i meant. I am mainly shocked at the publics general failure to understand human nature and its desire to extract money when incentivized to do so. I dont disagree that wind can have a lower footprint in terms of landspace taken but if solar is more efficient and less expensive then at some point when it becomes long enough lasting to be profitable, then of course those with forests will convert them to solar farms. This was not unforeseeable
- xamuel 7y agoYou don't even need the solar panels themselves in order to see the effects of perverse incentives. The Kyoto Protocol defines "bioenergy" (energy produced by burning wood) as carbon neutral. As a result, in the EU, they're literally burning up forests for energy, under the banner of environmentalism. https://news.mongabay.com/2019/03/eu-sued-to-stop-burning-trees-for-energy-its-not-carbon-neutral-plaintiffs/ https://news.mongabay.com/2019/03/eu-sued-to-stop-burning-tr...
- KirinDave 7y agoLarge wind turbines are much less sustainable and higher maintenance. They're really only sensible in small scales, where their other disadvantages go away, or when no other option is viable.
- freehunter 7y ago
- jseliger 7y agoI would love to see laws preventing destruction of woods, or otherwise fertile land, especially when wind power seems to be the way to go around here. Or we could just build nuclear: https://www.city-journal.org/atomic-power https://www.city-journal.org/atomic-power and solve many problems at once, using technology that already exists.
- m463 7y agoI found it fascinating to compare the energy found in different substances. [1] For instance, gasoline is 34.2 MJ/L A lithium-ion battery is 2.6 MJ/L Meanwhile, Uranium is 1,539,842,000 MJ/L [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Table_of_energy_content https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Table_of_energy...
- addicted 7y agoExcept nuclear costs a lot more. L For the same amount of money we’d get a lot more energy out of solar or wind. And no radioactive waste and proliferation worries as a bonus.
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- topher515 7y agoThis article made me think of the endless "solar farms" scene from Blade Runner 2049[1] [1] https://youtu.be/u9L0pord5jE?t=68 https://youtu.be/u9L0pord5jE?t=68
- Analemma_ 7y agoThat scene is quite plausible! People have calculated that we could supply all of Earth's (present) energy needs by covering just 1.2% of the Sahara desert in solar panels [1], and there would be positive side effects on the local climate to boot. Of course, we would never actually get all our energy in one spot, since there are questions of transmission, redundancy, political instability, etc. But it does point toward a future where lots of otherwise-useless desert land (like in SoCal, where the Blade Runner movies take place) is converted into solar farms. [1]: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6406/1019 https://science.sciencemag.org/content/361/6406/1019
- grogenaut 7y agoI'm going to bet power consumption is like hard drive space, the more you have the more you use. There is of course some thermodynamic limit to the amount of power we can use before over heating
- spacegod 7y agoJevons paradox
- phil248 7y agoThe trend towards better energy efficiency has all but stalled increasing energy use per capita in developed nations. And effective efforts at water conservation show that it is possible to pull back consumption in some cases, even if the natural trend is increased consumption.
- Spooky23 7y agoThat’s because incentives shifted toward decreasing peak demand.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y agoIs there any reason solar installation could not be vertical like a tree with branches and leaves? Is there no angle / arrangement at which efficiency is all the same as a flat set up? Or is it just more expensive to build out that type of infrastructure?
- throwaway5752 7y agoMore expensive. Do a google image search for "solar trees" and there are plenty of them where space is constrained and aesthetics are a factor.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y agoI’ve seen those, they are interesting but not exactly what I had in mind in terms of form. I envision some sort of square set up at 45 degrees angles for each panel, aimed inward like a funnel, but now I’m thinking it’ll probably destroy itself with all that heat generated?
- KirinDave 7y agoAre you thinking about molten sodium power plants that use mirrors?
- KirinDave 7y agoTrees only do what they do because they're in competition with other trees. Unless someone starts putting solar panels on poles above the farm, it doesn't really make sense to kick that kind of competition off. There is, after all, a fixed amount of surface area to expose to direct sunlight.
- jaaron 7y agoSoil salinity is a serious issue in the central valley of California [1]. Converting more of that land (often currently fallow) to solar is an interesting solution to the problem. [1] https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/centralvalley/water_issues/salinity/ https://www.waterboards.ca.gov/centralvalley/water_issues/sa...
- OrgNet 7y agolack of water isnt a bigger problem?
- jpollock 7y agoUsing ground water for irrigation increases the salinity.
- matt9j 7y agoSpecifically groundwater use with poor drainage leads to salt accumulation over time as the water evaporates and the trace amounts of salt present in the "fresh" water are left behind.
- OrgNet 7y agowhy don't they use reverse osmosis? because they move the farm when the soil is contaminated? CA is messed up when it comes to agriculture
- nwallin 7y agoReverse osmosis is super expensive. The central valley accounts for 1% of US farmland by area and 8% of US agriculture by revenue. Whatever they're doing wrong, they're also doing something right.
- Filligree 7y agoProfiting from unsustainable farming is "right"? It sounds like they can afford not to destroy the soil.
- ggm 7y agoNon-water consuming income stream, which also rests the land. Minor worries about erosion and soil health, but feels like a net beneficial model overall.
- erikpukinskis 7y agoSeems like you’re trying to give a general assessment on a matter that’s quite context specific.
- dr_dshiv 7y agoRemember that time you somehow managed to hook TiVos together to a video camera so it created a psychedelic looped stream of the present? I'll never forget that one... Derek
- ggm 7y agoSame problem in Australia. Massive groundwater and surface water problems, with a power issue around coal. If we paid farmers to take land out of direct production or to reduced intensity, (income stream) and therefore reduce water consumption (groundwater restored) and rest land (reduced soil erosion) its a big upside. And thats two economies, California and Australia. You think there are no other places facing tensions around land use, water and farmer income?
- jandrese 7y agoUnfortunately the Australian government is still in the pocket of the coal companies, so these efforts have to come from private donation and face government pushback. Australia has incredible solar and wind power opportunities that the current government is trying their best to ignore in favor of burning more coal.
- kardos 7y agoExcept for cleaning the panels?
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- ecpottinger 7y agoWhat I noticed is a lack of mention of installing elevated solar panels so grasses and other plants can grow under the solar panels where the shade reduces the impact of too strong a sunlight exposure.
- matt9j 7y agoI think this is a really interesting point, and am curious about how the shade from the panels will change the ecosystem underneath them. If the natural habitat is mostly low brush having soil that is fully shaded for a large fraction of the day would advantage different types of plants.
- looki 7y agoThere has been some research on this: https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/press-releases/2017/harvesting-the-sun-for-power-and-produce-agrophotovoltaics-increases-the-land-use-efficiency-by-over-60-percent.html https://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/press-media/press-releases/...
- londons_explore 7y agoI hypothesize that the lack of biomass in direct sunlight is mostly because the right seeds aren't yet planted there. Some cacti or other plants with waxy skin and deep roots would love the extra sunlight.
- hedora 7y agoThey’re doing this to avoid irrigation. I suspect they haven’t thought about what this will do to the topsoil. Even ignoring the ecological catastrophe of destroying the topsoil, getting the dust it produces off those panels during the summer is going to be expensive. Planting native pollinator friendly stuff under the solar panels would address my concerns though.
- KirinDave 7y agoAre you under the impression farmland is not a massive source of dust? It's tilled and aerated soil populated by short-lived crops genetically engineered to spend as much of their energy on the edible part as possible. If you want a concern to hold, it's that this will probably increase pioneer grass spreading during the rainy season and then then the panels will all get melted in a wildfire. You don't need to plant anything to pollinator-friendly stuff on your land in California. It shows up with a vengeance.
- awinter-py 7y agonot sure of the details but heard that the chinese govt is incentivizing rice farmers to install solar aerators and convert the rice paddies to fish ponds (and this may be as part of a hybrid fish/rice farm with nitrogen exchange)
- foota 7y agoIt was probably from that stack exchange answer about China a couple weeks ago, about converting traditional fish ponds that used waste from silk worms? to a method using solar panels.
- _1tan 7y agoIIRC it was a Quora answer: https://www.quora.com/How-is-China-able-to-provide-enough-food-to-feed-its-population-of-over-1-billion-people-Do-they-import-food-or-are-they-self-sustainable https://www.quora.com/How-is-China-able-to-provide-enough-fo...
- hedora 7y agoSo, instead of building a few reservoirs (or just covering the aqueducts!!!), California is going to convert irreplaceable crop land to solar farms that could be put on top of much less scarce / valuable land. (eg: desert in New Mexico, the Salton Sea, etc). facepalm
- KirinDave 7y agoYou have this curious idea that "a few reservoirs" are going to preserve the usability of this land for farming? You're just wrong. Climate change is going to make certain parts of California much more expensive (in terms of energy and water) to farm. These areas are probably irreparable, not irreplaceable. P.S., The Salton Sea is not a place we should send humans to work. It's an industrial disaster, not a resource.
- hedora 7y agoClimate change will increase the variance of rainfall from season to season. California is projected to have a >15% increase in average precipitation: https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report/our-changing-climate/precipitation-change https://nca2014.globalchange.gov/report/our-changing-climate... The increase in variance means more droughts, and more need for reservoirs.
- KirinDave 7y agoYes, and the maximum precipitation increase will actually decrease the amount of water that land will hold in topsoil, as has been Southern California's condition for some time.
- hedora 7y agoAlso, people currently live near the Salton Sea. As it continues to dry out, if nothing is done, it will make the air in parts of LA unbreathable. Paying locals to stabilize it now (so they can afford to leave!) seems preferable to the status quo.
- Kliment 7y ago
- rhegart 7y agoOnly $113B? Half of CA budget and we were like 30B under budget last 2 years. Divert more funding to this. Easily doable
- rbanffy 7y agoThe added benefit is that surplus electricity can make desalination practical.
- ptah 7y agothis is so much better than nuclear energy, which is very high risk of even competent people making disastrous mistakes like fukushima and chernobyl.
- concert-gilled 7y agoI have seen many stories about large solar panel installations but I have not seen very many stories about energy storage systems. Solar energy is dependent on weather, season, and time of day so energy needs to be stored for when there is less to no sunlight. I know Tesla has done several large battery installations but has anyone seen any other stories?
- strainer 7y agohttps://duckduckgo.com/?q=renewable+energy+storage https://duckduckgo.com/?q=renewable+energy+storage
- concert-gilled 7y agoI know there are ways to store renewable energy. I am asking about specific energy storage sites being built. Generally speaking, linking to search results is condescending and not an answer.
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- philipkglass 7y agoTrade publications like Greentech Media and PV Magazine are currently the best option if you want to keep up with electricity storage news. As the storage market matures somebody will probably launch storage-specific publications, just like solar and wind already have their own specific trade publications. Here are some stories from the past few months: "Georgia Power Boosts Plan for Renewables and Storage After Local Stakeholder Push" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/georgia-power-ups-plan-for-renewables-and-storage https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/georgia-power-u... "What Oakland’s Pioneering Peaker Replacement Says About the Storage Market" https://www.greentechmedia.com/squared/storage-plus/what-oaklands-pioneering-peaker-replacement-says-about-the-storage-market https://www.greentechmedia.com/squared/storage-plus/what-oak... "Stem Steps Into Grid-Scale Storage With Partnership in Massachusetts" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/stem-steps-into-grid-scale-storage-with-partnership-in-massachusetts https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/stem-steps-into... "L.A. Looks to Break Price Records With Massive Solar-Battery Project" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ladwp-plans-to-break-new-low-price-records-with-massive-solar-battery-proje https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/ladwp-plans-to-... "NV Energy Announces ‘Hulkingly Big’ Solar-Plus-Storage Procurement" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nv-energy-signs-a-whopping-1-2-gigawatts-of-solar-and-590-megawatts-of-stor https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nv-energy-signs... "GlidePath Builds Merchant Battery Plant in ERCOT, Bucking Industry Wisdom" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/glidepath-bucked-the-industry-trend-and-built-a-merchant-plant-in-ercot https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/glidepath-bucke... "Puerto Rico’s Latest IRP Increases Solar and Storage Targets" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/puerto-ricos-latest-irp-proposal-increases-solar-and-storage-targets-includ https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/puerto-ricos-la... "Eversource Wants to Back Up an Entire Rural Town With Batteries Large and Small" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/eversource-wants-to-back-up-an-entire-rural-town-with-batteries-large-and-s https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/eversource-want... "‘Cheaper Than a Peaker’: NextEra Inks Massive Wind+Solar+Storage Deal in Oklahoma" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nextera-inks-even-bigger-windsolarstorage-deal-with-oklahoma-cooperative https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/nextera-inks-ev... "Another California City Drops Gas Peaker in Favor of Clean Portfolio" https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/glendale-drops-gas-peaker-in-favor-of-clean-and-distributed-portfolio https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/glendale-drops-... "Storage Is Breaking Through in Diverse Markets Across the US" https://www.greentechmedia.com/squared/storage-plus/storage-northeast-south-oklahoma-glendale https://www.greentechmedia.com/squared/storage-plus/storage-... "Solar + batteries help the grid recover in Kaua’i" https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/25/solar-batteries-help-the-grid-recover-in-kauai/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/25/solar-batteries-help-... "Cryogenic energy storage firm teams with Tenaska to develop U.S. projects" https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/18/cryogenic-energy-storage-firm-teams-with-tenaska-to-develop-u-s-projects/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/18/cryogenic-energy-stor... "Enormous Montana pumped hydro project gets Danish investment" https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/10/massive-montana-pumped-hydro-project-gets-danish-investment/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/10/massive-montana-pumpe... "Sunrun gets a second contract to supply capacity from rooftop solar + batteries" https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/18/sunrun-gets-a-second-contract-to-supply-capacity-from-rooftop-solar-batteries/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/07/18/sunrun-gets-a-second-... "South Australia gives 500 MW solar farm plus 250 MW battery plan the go-ahead" https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/07/04/south-australia-gives-500-mw-solar-farm-plus-250-mw-battery-plan-the-go-ahead/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2019/07/04/south-australia-gives...