7 ms·

food delivery service is blowing up because it's still extremely inefficient in the USA. you can get _anything_ delivered in Hong Kong for about $1. some hong k

by mylons 7y ago

food delivery service is blowing up because it's still extremely inefficient in the USA. you can get _anything_ delivered in Hong Kong for about $1. some hong kongers don't even have kitchens and live like that for years. travis kalanick is investing millions of his own cash into this space.

henryfjordan 7y ago
The density of HK is not comparable to basically anywhere in the US, except maybe just Manhattan. The labour sources are also a lot cheaper. There's room to improve in the US, like making kitchens without the attached restaurant more prevalent, but as long as you have to get in a car to deliver the food, there's going to be the same problems the rideshare industry faces.
- mylons 7y ago
  HK was just an example. it's true for most/all chinese cities.
  - spullara 7y ago
    Most/all Chinese cities are denser with cheaper labor than any US city so the point stands.
    - monomyth 7y ago
      Are you sure about the first point? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Neither Shanghai or Beijing would make top 20 on this list
      - xmprt 7y ago
        Did you even click on one of the "cities" on that page? The size of Guttenberg is 0.196 sq. miles. It's a tiny part of a city in a small state. You're comparing apples to oranges. A more reasonable comparison would be all of New York City or all of Los Angeles to Shanghai which would be more interesting.
    - dannyr 7y ago
      Metro Manila is not as dense but delivery here is so cheap. Grab and Lala are huge in Manila.
      - threezero 7y ago
        Labor costs in Manila are much lower than Europe or the US.
        dannyr 7y ago
        I mean, that's already implied if you look at the comment I'm responding to.
  - chimeracoder 7y ago
    > HK was just an example. it's true for most/all chinese cities. Chinese cities have access to incredibly cheap labor, far more so than most cities in the US or Europe.
- pradn 7y ago
  New types of restaurants are popping up: 1) Ghost kitchens that only serve via delivery apps. You can save on rent by setting it up in an area with no foot-traffic. You can also get economies of scale. 2) Restaurants with dedicated entrances for delivery drivers. Baar Baar in NYC has a separate place where delivery workers can wait. In other restaurants, they have to wait in the limited dining area. One hopes that the workers still get to use restrooms & get some water, etc.
  - notyourday 7y ago
    > 1) Ghost kitchens that only serve via delivery apps. You can save on rent by setting it up in an area with no foot-traffic. You can also get economies of scale. You can't. This is the kind of a mistake that all first time entrepreneurs make. Delivery costs too much money. Logistics of getting your labor force to your kitchen is a nightmare. > 2) Restaurants with dedicated entrances for delivery drivers. Baar Baar in NYC has a separate place where delivery workers can wait. In other restaurants, they have to wait in the limited dining area. One hopes that the workers still get to use restrooms & get some water, etc. This was tried in NYC during first dot com. Remember purple shirts? They had a competitor with green shirts. That's the unproductive spaces. Rent hikes wiped those out. Edit: Blind downvotes are laughable. Go walk into your local pizza place and talk to the owners. They will tell you why they are slowly dropping off all the apps. They are giving equivalent of a 20-30% discount in fees for the area they already deliver in. Ghost kitchens are mostly scams. The ones that aren't are ran out of commissary commercial kitchens that cost an arm and a leg. The "ghost kitchens" are mostly not really legal, sometimes ran out of a house, marketing same stuff under different names. Most of the restaurant overhead for small places does not come from the rent of the floor space. It comes from the rent of the kitchen and compliance with the health codes. And, unlike say taxi commissions, health departments take no crap, which is why the ghost restaurants disappear rather quickly. It is the "no one did it before" idea of people who have never ran restaurants. It always flops. If it did not, Union Sq Hospitality would have been doing it for years.
    - wpietri 7y ago
      I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. A beloved restaurant near my house is closing down, and the owner is pretty clear about how ugly the economics of delivery are: https://missionlocal.org/2019/05/custards-last-stand-mission-pie-vs-the-gig-economy/ https://missionlocal.org/2019/05/custards-last-stand-mission...
420codebro 7y ago
Very interesting. I read something the other day that 20-25% of US food-delivery-service drivers have admitted to stealing some portion of food (typically free-grab french fries). I wonder if this exists elsewhere too. Or maybe it really doesn't matter.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
I think you meant to say that Travis is investing millions of his fund's cash, NOT his personal money. Is that correct?
- deminature 7y ago
  His fund is entirely funded from personal cash, so it's broadly the same thing.
  - mruts 7y ago
    A man gotta have a hobby I suppose..
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
  - simonebrunozzi 7y ago
    Ah, I didn't know that. I thought there were other LPs in the fund.
paulcole 7y ago
Talk about a HUGE misunderstanding about a HUGE amount of the United States. A variety of restaurants just doesn’t exist in many places. It’s fast food, fast casual, and maybe a couple of local pizza/taco places. Beyond that, good luck.
- ethbro 7y ago
  Presumably we're not talking about Shoney's country, if we're talking about food delivery service models. Incidentally, that was my first estimate for how far in the country I was when I travelled a lot for work: "How many reviews does {insert fast food restaurant} have on Yelp?" Turns out, people only leave lots of Yelp reviews for Taco Bells when that's the only thing around.
pkaye 7y ago
The fact that Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated areas of the world does help in this regard.
dheera 7y ago
Yep, where I am $15 meal on UberEats costs about $22.50 delivered as of right now.
anbop 7y ago
Hong Kong is a cube and the US is a plane. Delivery costs are not comparable

by mylons 7y ago

henryfjordan 7y ago

The density of HK is not comparable to basically anywhere in the US, except maybe just Manhattan. The labour sources are also a lot cheaper. There's room to improve in the US, like making kitchens without the attached restaurant more prevalent, but as long as you have to get in a car to deliver the food, there's going to be the same problems the rideshare industry faces.

mylons 7y ago
HK was just an example. it's true for most/all chinese cities.
- spullara 7y ago
  Most/all Chinese cities are denser with cheaper labor than any US city so the point stands.
  - monomyth 7y ago
    Are you sure about the first point? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Neither Shanghai or Beijing would make top 20 on this list
    - xmprt 7y ago
      Did you even click on one of the "cities" on that page? The size of Guttenberg is 0.196 sq. miles. It's a tiny part of a city in a small state. You're comparing apples to oranges. A more reasonable comparison would be all of New York City or all of Los Angeles to Shanghai which would be more interesting.
  - dannyr 7y ago
    Metro Manila is not as dense but delivery here is so cheap. Grab and Lala are huge in Manila.
    - threezero 7y ago
      Labor costs in Manila are much lower than Europe or the US.
      - dannyr 7y ago
        I mean, that's already implied if you look at the comment I'm responding to.
- chimeracoder 7y ago
  > HK was just an example. it's true for most/all chinese cities. Chinese cities have access to incredibly cheap labor, far more so than most cities in the US or Europe.
pradn 7y ago
New types of restaurants are popping up: 1) Ghost kitchens that only serve via delivery apps. You can save on rent by setting it up in an area with no foot-traffic. You can also get economies of scale. 2) Restaurants with dedicated entrances for delivery drivers. Baar Baar in NYC has a separate place where delivery workers can wait. In other restaurants, they have to wait in the limited dining area. One hopes that the workers still get to use restrooms & get some water, etc.
- notyourday 7y ago
  > 1) Ghost kitchens that only serve via delivery apps. You can save on rent by setting it up in an area with no foot-traffic. You can also get economies of scale. You can't. This is the kind of a mistake that all first time entrepreneurs make. Delivery costs too much money. Logistics of getting your labor force to your kitchen is a nightmare. > 2) Restaurants with dedicated entrances for delivery drivers. Baar Baar in NYC has a separate place where delivery workers can wait. In other restaurants, they have to wait in the limited dining area. One hopes that the workers still get to use restrooms & get some water, etc. This was tried in NYC during first dot com. Remember purple shirts? They had a competitor with green shirts. That's the unproductive spaces. Rent hikes wiped those out. Edit: Blind downvotes are laughable. Go walk into your local pizza place and talk to the owners. They will tell you why they are slowly dropping off all the apps. They are giving equivalent of a 20-30% discount in fees for the area they already deliver in. Ghost kitchens are mostly scams. The ones that aren't are ran out of commissary commercial kitchens that cost an arm and a leg. The "ghost kitchens" are mostly not really legal, sometimes ran out of a house, marketing same stuff under different names. Most of the restaurant overhead for small places does not come from the rent of the floor space. It comes from the rent of the kitchen and compliance with the health codes. And, unlike say taxi commissions, health departments take no crap, which is why the ghost restaurants disappear rather quickly. It is the "no one did it before" idea of people who have never ran restaurants. It always flops. If it did not, Union Sq Hospitality would have been doing it for years.
  - wpietri 7y ago
    I'm not sure why you're getting downvoted. A beloved restaurant near my house is closing down, and the owner is pretty clear about how ugly the economics of delivery are: https://missionlocal.org/2019/05/custards-last-stand-mission-pie-vs-the-gig-economy/ https://missionlocal.org/2019/05/custards-last-stand-mission...

420codebro 7y ago

Very interesting. I read something the other day that 20-25% of US food-delivery-service drivers have admitted to stealing some portion of food (typically free-grab french fries). I wonder if this exists elsewhere too. Or maybe it really doesn't matter.

simonebrunozzi 7y ago

I think you meant to say that Travis is investing millions of his fund's cash, NOT his personal money. Is that correct?

deminature 7y ago
His fund is entirely funded from personal cash, so it's broadly the same thing.
- mruts 7y ago
  A man gotta have a hobby I suppose..
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- simonebrunozzi 7y ago
  Ah, I didn't know that. I thought there were other LPs in the fund.

paulcole 7y ago

Talk about a HUGE misunderstanding about a HUGE amount of the United States. A variety of restaurants just doesn’t exist in many places. It’s fast food, fast casual, and maybe a couple of local pizza/taco places. Beyond that, good luck.

ethbro 7y ago
Presumably we're not talking about Shoney's country, if we're talking about food delivery service models. Incidentally, that was my first estimate for how far in the country I was when I travelled a lot for work: "How many reviews does {insert fast food restaurant} have on Yelp?" Turns out, people only leave lots of Yelp reviews for Taco Bells when that's the only thing around.

pkaye 7y ago

The fact that Hong Kong is one of the most densely populated areas of the world does help in this regard.

dheera 7y ago

Yep, where I am $15 meal on UberEats costs about $22.50 delivered as of right now.

anbop 7y ago

Hong Kong is a cube and the US is a plane. Delivery costs are not comparable