5 ms·

I'm sure the tradesmen who didn't go to college would be fine with their tax money going to someone who spent 4 years studying art history.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? I don't see tradesmen protesting that. At least forgiving loan debt generates economic activity and growth, as those dollars are now discretionary income to circulate through the economy, not another tax payment to the US government. Who do you think needs those services and might be more able to pay for them? Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though, which is why it isn't their role to set it, just as I don't ask an economist to weld a pipeline together. I can still respect the roles of both practitioners regardless.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  "Don't worry, this time we're just lighting your money on fire without pissing on it first" is not likely to resonate with voters. Last time the government bailed things out it didn't exactly turn out well for the average voter, especially the blue collar ones (that said, it probably did make the '08 recession a hell of a lot less bad) Like it or not those tradesmen get to vote. You're gonna need to do a job selling your bailout than "the money will bounce around our economy" (which is a valid claim IMO).
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    If you can't argue to someone's compassionate side, nor their economic rationally, all you're left with is negating the value of their vote whenever possible. There is no point in engaging or fighting against a brick wall.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? Two wrongs don't make a right. > Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though Well that's very classist of you. I've seen a whole mess of folks with fancy credentials that are about as useful as a pair of tits on a hog. You know what I saw when I went to university? Professors willfully lowering the bar to cater to unmotived, unprepared students because tuition dollars. Fix that and then we can talk about free education, until then you're just pouring gasoline onto a dumpster fire.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    > Well that's very classist of you. I've seen a whole mess of folks with fancy credentials that are about as useful as a pair of tits on a hog. I wouldn't have a welder or other tradesperson perform neurosurgery on me, nor argue as my defense attorney in court. Why would I expect them any more qualified to set economic policy? That's not classism, that's common sense and reason. What is more astounding is that someone could be of the opinion that as person not educated in economics should have the ability to set such policy. An intelligent, rational human being evaluates a decision and delegates the responsibility to a domain expert when they have ascertained that the domain knowledge and experience they have falls outside of what is required to make said decision. Any other course of action isn't just irrational, but possibly dangerous ("unknown unknowns", "you don't know what you don't know").
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      > Why would I expect them any more qualified to set economic policy? Well that's moving the goalposts. You'd made it out like a tradesman couldn't understand economic policy to begin with, that's a different contention.
      - toomuchtodo 7y ago
        Yes, I’m saying exactly this, that your average tradesperson doesn’t understand macroeconomic policy, why monetary velocity is crucial for the health of an economic system, etc. Outliers certainly exist, but we’re talking average.
        mieseratte 7y ago
        > why monetary velocity is crucial for the health of an economic system I sincerely doubt it takes a university education to understand that more money changing hands is a good sign of a healthy economy. They do still teach civics and economics in high school. It also doesn't take a degree to know that giving money to someone, or in this case something, with no incentive to act right is a bad thing.
- niij 7y ago
  > Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? There can be multiple bad ideas at one time. Wasting money is wasting money.
mempko 7y ago
I'm sure the tradesmen would prefer they buy his/her products vs paying for student debt.
Gibbon1 7y ago
I'm sure a tradesman would much prefer his kids being able to afford college too. And actually there are a lot of tradesmen who probably would like to be able to afford to go to college.
- whatshisface 7y ago
  That could be satisfied by making college free going forwards but not cancelling any outstanding debt.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
    That's a fairness argument. How about this, in the 1980's I got a BSME for under $20k since the State of California paid for most of it. Friend of mine got a free ride to MIT courtesy of wealthy grandparents on his mothers side. Another friends single mother was on welfare, as a reasult he got a bunch of grants which paid for everything. He was lucky because he managed to get his BSEE before Reagan made sure kids like him got screwed good and hard. One can argue that that people currently suffering under high levels of student debt were given a raw deal already. Life is so very unfair already. That it's 'bad' to make things more fair for one set of people but not another is a weak argument in my opinion.
- bitlax 7y ago
  What if they become tradesmen?

toomuchtodo 7y ago

Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? I don't see tradesmen protesting that. At least forgiving loan debt generates economic activity and growth, as those dollars are now discretionary income to circulate through the economy, not another tax payment to the US government. Who do you think needs those services and might be more able to pay for them? Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though, which is why it isn't their role to set it, just as I don't ask an economist to weld a pipeline together. I can still respect the roles of both practitioners regardless.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
"Don't worry, this time we're just lighting your money on fire without pissing on it first" is not likely to resonate with voters. Last time the government bailed things out it didn't exactly turn out well for the average voter, especially the blue collar ones (that said, it probably did make the '08 recession a hell of a lot less bad) Like it or not those tradesmen get to vote. You're gonna need to do a job selling your bailout than "the money will bounce around our economy" (which is a valid claim IMO).
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  If you can't argue to someone's compassionate side, nor their economic rationally, all you're left with is negating the value of their vote whenever possible. There is no point in engaging or fighting against a brick wall.
mieseratte 7y ago
> Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? Two wrongs don't make a right. > Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though Well that's very classist of you. I've seen a whole mess of folks with fancy credentials that are about as useful as a pair of tits on a hog. You know what I saw when I went to university? Professors willfully lowering the bar to cater to unmotived, unprepared students because tuition dollars. Fix that and then we can talk about free education, until then you're just pouring gasoline onto a dumpster fire.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  > Well that's very classist of you. I've seen a whole mess of folks with fancy credentials that are about as useful as a pair of tits on a hog. I wouldn't have a welder or other tradesperson perform neurosurgery on me, nor argue as my defense attorney in court. Why would I expect them any more qualified to set economic policy? That's not classism, that's common sense and reason. What is more astounding is that someone could be of the opinion that as person not educated in economics should have the ability to set such policy. An intelligent, rational human being evaluates a decision and delegates the responsibility to a domain expert when they have ascertained that the domain knowledge and experience they have falls outside of what is required to make said decision. Any other course of action isn't just irrational, but possibly dangerous ("unknown unknowns", "you don't know what you don't know").
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > Why would I expect them any more qualified to set economic policy? Well that's moving the goalposts. You'd made it out like a tradesman couldn't understand economic policy to begin with, that's a different contention.
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      Yes, I’m saying exactly this, that your average tradesperson doesn’t understand macroeconomic policy, why monetary velocity is crucial for the health of an economic system, etc. Outliers certainly exist, but we’re talking average.
      - mieseratte 7y ago
        > why monetary velocity is crucial for the health of an economic system I sincerely doubt it takes a university education to understand that more money changing hands is a good sign of a healthy economy. They do still teach civics and economics in high school. It also doesn't take a degree to know that giving money to someone, or in this case something, with no incentive to act right is a bad thing.
niij 7y ago
> Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? There can be multiple bad ideas at one time. Wasting money is wasting money.

mempko 7y ago

I'm sure the tradesmen would prefer they buy his/her products vs paying for student debt.

Gibbon1 7y ago

I'm sure a tradesman would much prefer his kids being able to afford college too. And actually there are a lot of tradesmen who probably would like to be able to afford to go to college.

whatshisface 7y ago
That could be satisfied by making college free going forwards but not cancelling any outstanding debt.
- Gibbon1 7y ago
  That's a fairness argument. How about this, in the 1980's I got a BSME for under $20k since the State of California paid for most of it. Friend of mine got a free ride to MIT courtesy of wealthy grandparents on his mothers side. Another friends single mother was on welfare, as a reasult he got a bunch of grants which paid for everything. He was lucky because he managed to get his BSEE before Reagan made sure kids like him got screwed good and hard. One can argue that that people currently suffering under high levels of student debt were given a raw deal already. Life is so very unfair already. That it's 'bad' to make things more fair for one set of people but not another is a weak argument in my opinion.
bitlax 7y ago
What if they become tradesmen?