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This is why Bernie's Cancel all Student Debt and make colleges tuition-free makes really good economic sense. Student Debt is a huge weight on our economy. Our

by mempko 7y ago

This is why Bernie's Cancel all Student Debt and make colleges tuition-free makes really good economic sense. Student Debt is a huge weight on our economy. Our economy runs on consumer spending and Bernie's policies, including Medicare for All will increase consumer spending and make starting businesses a lot easier. EDIT: Here is an interesting interview from Asher Edelman about the velocity of money and Bernie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xSVzdUNqo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9xSVzdUNqo

maximente 7y ago
coupled with changing the law so that this debt is dischargable - like any other - so that the economics of private uni/college also improve alongside (i believe his proposal is free public college/U). it currently is not, which is just asinine; it's modern indentured servitude by any other name (naive 18y/o signs up after getting hustled, etc.)
- mempko 7y ago
  Yes, this would be a really good change. As you said, it's insane you can't bankrupt on that debt.
  - HappySweeney 7y ago
    I'm no expert by any means, but isn't this due to the idea that nearly all students would simply declare bankruptcy upon graduation?
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      That's always brought up but the debt used to be dischargeable and people didn't default on it at any abnormally high rate. With current loan inflated tuition prices I bet there would be a spike in "intentional" bankruptcy as tuition prices plummet towards their new equilibrium.
whatshisface 7y ago
Can those of us who were terrified of student loans and who scrimped through on extra hardship to avoid them have some of that money?
- minikites 7y ago
  Do you want medical treatment when you're not injured? You should be thankful you avoided hardship.
- Loughla 7y ago
  I'm genuinely not trying to be hateful, and these next sentences are not meant to be as shitty sounding as they might sound, but I don't know how else to phrase this. I have this question when I hear people like you say things like that: Why can't you just support policies that help other people without worrying about yourself? Is 'I had it bad so everyone else should, too' really where you want to live?
  - niij 7y ago
    Because people with personal responsibility paid for themselves AND are now expected to pay for others through their taxes. Why should I be expected to pay for your poor financial decisions?
    - Accacin 7y ago
      Honestly, this is the big difference I think in American and EU thinking (to be incredibly general). I am paying back my UK student loan, and if a party like Labour once again said they were going to make university tuition free again, I would vote for them in a heartbeat. I don't care that I'd still have to pay, I want my country to be better. To be a bit melodramatic, yours and my ancestors sacrificed a lot to be where we are now. I'm just glad the only thing I'm likely going to need to sacrifice is some extra tax.
      - refurb 7y ago
        You're comparing different things. If you had just paid off your student loans by diligently saving and the Labour party said they'll forgive the debt of your classmates who partied it up and never paid back their loans would you feel the same?
egdod 7y ago
Most student debt is owed by people who are already in the top quartile of wealth. I like free money too, but let’s call it what it is: a handout to people who largely don’t need handouts.
- jihadjihad 7y ago
  Then there's those who've gotten to the point of giving themselves their own handout...https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-financial-aid-loophole-wealthy-parents-transfer-guardianship-of-their-teens-to-get-aid-11564450828 https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-financial-aid-loophole-...
- daxorid 7y ago
  This is demonstrably untrue, as 2010's SAFRA effectively nationalized 80% of student debt. Direct Loans by the government, not private lenders, comprise almost all of the student debt market, as of now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Aid_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Aid_and_Fiscal_Respons...
  - egdod 7y ago
    I’m talking about the students who owe the money, not the lenders that own the debt.
- mempko 7y ago
  This isn't true, the majority of student debt is owned by those in the bottom 3 quartiles. Only 34% is owed by the top quartile. https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/which-households-hold-most-student-debt https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/which-households-hold-most-... Which means a student loan cancellation would help the middle class the most since student debt would be a higher percentage of their income and the bottom 75% hold 66% (the majority) of the debt.
  - refurb 7y ago
    Read your link again. It says 34% of educational debt is held by the highest quartile households by income. Only 17% by the lowest.
kyleblarson 7y ago
I'm sure the tradesmen who didn't go to college would be fine with their tax money going to someone who spent 4 years studying art history.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? I don't see tradesmen protesting that. At least forgiving loan debt generates economic activity and growth, as those dollars are now discretionary income to circulate through the economy, not another tax payment to the US government. Who do you think needs those services and might be more able to pay for them? Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though, which is why it isn't their role to set it, just as I don't ask an economist to weld a pipeline together. I can still respect the roles of both practitioners regardless.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    "Don't worry, this time we're just lighting your money on fire without pissing on it first" is not likely to resonate with voters. Last time the government bailed things out it didn't exactly turn out well for the average voter, especially the blue collar ones (that said, it probably did make the '08 recession a hell of a lot less bad) Like it or not those tradesmen get to vote. You're gonna need to do a job selling your bailout than "the money will bounce around our economy" (which is a valid claim IMO).
    - toomuchtodo 7y ago
      If you can't argue to someone's compassionate side, nor their economic rationally, all you're left with is negating the value of their vote whenever possible. There is no point in engaging or fighting against a brick wall.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? Two wrongs don't make a right. > Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though Well that's very classist of you. I've seen a whole mess of folks with fancy credentials that are about as useful as a pair of tits on a hog. You know what I saw when I went to university? Professors willfully lowering the bar to cater to unmotived, unprepared students because tuition dollars. Fix that and then we can talk about free education, until then you're just pouring gasoline onto a dumpster fire.
m0zg 7y ago
Where by "cancel student debt" Bernie just means that everyone will pay, not just the borrowers. Anything else would break the laws of physics. In the 60s you could fully finance your education working part time as a waiter/waitress (Elizabeth Warren is a notable example). But then government got involved, and now your education costs as much as a house. What Bernie is proposing is essentially an unlimited amount of money for the education industry to take, and no way for the taxpayer to refuse to pay. Thanks but no thanks.

by mempko 7y ago

maximente 7y ago

coupled with changing the law so that this debt is dischargable - like any other - so that the economics of private uni/college also improve alongside (i believe his proposal is free public college/U). it currently is not, which is just asinine; it's modern indentured servitude by any other name (naive 18y/o signs up after getting hustled, etc.)

mempko 7y ago
Yes, this would be a really good change. As you said, it's insane you can't bankrupt on that debt.
- HappySweeney 7y ago
  I'm no expert by any means, but isn't this due to the idea that nearly all students would simply declare bankruptcy upon graduation?
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    That's always brought up but the debt used to be dischargeable and people didn't default on it at any abnormally high rate. With current loan inflated tuition prices I bet there would be a spike in "intentional" bankruptcy as tuition prices plummet towards their new equilibrium.

whatshisface 7y ago

Can those of us who were terrified of student loans and who scrimped through on extra hardship to avoid them have some of that money?

minikites 7y ago
Do you want medical treatment when you're not injured? You should be thankful you avoided hardship.
Loughla 7y ago
I'm genuinely not trying to be hateful, and these next sentences are not meant to be as shitty sounding as they might sound, but I don't know how else to phrase this. I have this question when I hear people like you say things like that: Why can't you just support policies that help other people without worrying about yourself? Is 'I had it bad so everyone else should, too' really where you want to live?
- niij 7y ago
  Because people with personal responsibility paid for themselves AND are now expected to pay for others through their taxes. Why should I be expected to pay for your poor financial decisions?
  - Accacin 7y ago
    Honestly, this is the big difference I think in American and EU thinking (to be incredibly general). I am paying back my UK student loan, and if a party like Labour once again said they were going to make university tuition free again, I would vote for them in a heartbeat. I don't care that I'd still have to pay, I want my country to be better. To be a bit melodramatic, yours and my ancestors sacrificed a lot to be where we are now. I'm just glad the only thing I'm likely going to need to sacrifice is some extra tax.
    - refurb 7y ago
      You're comparing different things. If you had just paid off your student loans by diligently saving and the Labour party said they'll forgive the debt of your classmates who partied it up and never paid back their loans would you feel the same?

egdod 7y ago

Most student debt is owed by people who are already in the top quartile of wealth. I like free money too, but let’s call it what it is: a handout to people who largely don’t need handouts.

jihadjihad 7y ago
Then there's those who've gotten to the point of giving themselves their own handout...https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-financial-aid-loophole-wealthy-parents-transfer-guardianship-of-their-teens-to-get-aid-11564450828 https://www.wsj.com/articles/college-financial-aid-loophole-...
daxorid 7y ago
This is demonstrably untrue, as 2010's SAFRA effectively nationalized 80% of student debt. Direct Loans by the government, not private lenders, comprise almost all of the student debt market, as of now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Aid_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_Aid_and_Fiscal_Respons...
- egdod 7y ago
  I’m talking about the students who owe the money, not the lenders that own the debt.
mempko 7y ago
This isn't true, the majority of student debt is owned by those in the bottom 3 quartiles. Only 34% is owed by the top quartile. https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/which-households-hold-most-student-debt https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/which-households-hold-most-... Which means a student loan cancellation would help the middle class the most since student debt would be a higher percentage of their income and the bottom 75% hold 66% (the majority) of the debt.
- refurb 7y ago
  Read your link again. It says 34% of educational debt is held by the highest quartile households by income. Only 17% by the lowest.

kyleblarson 7y ago

I'm sure the tradesmen who didn't go to college would be fine with their tax money going to someone who spent 4 years studying art history.

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? I don't see tradesmen protesting that. At least forgiving loan debt generates economic activity and growth, as those dollars are now discretionary income to circulate through the economy, not another tax payment to the US government. Who do you think needs those services and might be more able to pay for them? Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though, which is why it isn't their role to set it, just as I don't ask an economist to weld a pipeline together. I can still respect the roles of both practitioners regardless.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  "Don't worry, this time we're just lighting your money on fire without pissing on it first" is not likely to resonate with voters. Last time the government bailed things out it didn't exactly turn out well for the average voter, especially the blue collar ones (that said, it probably did make the '08 recession a hell of a lot less bad) Like it or not those tradesmen get to vote. You're gonna need to do a job selling your bailout than "the money will bounce around our economy" (which is a valid claim IMO).
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    If you can't argue to someone's compassionate side, nor their economic rationally, all you're left with is negating the value of their vote whenever possible. There is no point in engaging or fighting against a brick wall.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > Compared to trillions of dollars of unnecessary war spending we've already borrowed for and spent? Two wrongs don't make a right. > Tradesmen can be forgiven for not understanding macroeconomic policy though Well that's very classist of you. I've seen a whole mess of folks with fancy credentials that are about as useful as a pair of tits on a hog. You know what I saw when I went to university? Professors willfully lowering the bar to cater to unmotived, unprepared students because tuition dollars. Fix that and then we can talk about free education, until then you're just pouring gasoline onto a dumpster fire.

m0zg 7y ago

Where by "cancel student debt" Bernie just means that everyone will pay, not just the borrowers. Anything else would break the laws of physics. In the 60s you could fully finance your education working part time as a waiter/waitress (Elizabeth Warren is a notable example). But then government got involved, and now your education costs as much as a house. What Bernie is proposing is essentially an unlimited amount of money for the education industry to take, and no way for the taxpayer to refuse to pay. Thanks but no thanks.