5 ms·

As a trans woman, I agree this needs more study, and I have experienced something similar. And I'd like to have a word with whoever downvoted this.

hoorayimhelping 7y ago
>And I'd like to have a word with whoever downvoted this. Why? The comment is essentially: "I read someone claiming something one time." It has no sources, no links to anything to explore or understand, nothing. There's not even a link to the article or story. Just someone making a wild statement on the internet.
- liara_k 7y ago
  While anecdotes aren't evidence themselves, they're extremely useful (1) when there aren't scientific studies available and (2) for generating theories that can later be tested. Whether they're interpreted as an invitation for further discussion or unjustified proof depends on how responsible the audience is.
  - nicoburns 7y ago
    I'd argue that anecdotes are evidence. Albeit much weaker evidence than a scientific study. In the absense of better evidence, it would be foolish to disregard them entirely.
- undoware 7y ago
  Evidence from someone who has experience with particular medical condition, who has been living with it for years, is not 'ancedotal', it is local knowledge. It might not be accurate, but it's often a good place to begin actual scientific investigation. This isn't a wild statement; it's something I've personally suspected for years, and I'd like to see research around. But just pointing this out cost me -2 karma, which is -- again, anecdotally -- an example of how Hacker News is a toxic environment for marginalized folks. I'd love to see some studies on that too.
majos 7y ago
Can you elaborate on "experienced something similar"?
mffnbs 7y ago
What experiences did you have while on HRT that lead to you to believe this? In general, I'm specifically skeptic of claims of behavioral changes associated with HRT, as I feel as if a lot of those claims have roots in gendered preconceptions of women that have nothing to do with biological differences. People going through HRT will associate personal, unrelated, experiences with the medical transition, but cannot be corroborated through any studies or research.
- liara_k 7y ago
  Speaking for myself... The most obvious example was my response to emotional situations in fiction. Going from only being able to empathize with characters only on an intellectual level to also being able to empathize on an instinctual/emotional level was was so incredibly obvious it was like going from black and white to color. One the one hand, you could dismiss "I cry at movies now" as just an intellectually-driven conformity with gender stereotypes. You could dismiss my self-report as rationalization--even a dishonest one. On the other hand, what we're fundamentally talking about here is my own mental states--something about which I have first hand observation and you can have only assumptions. Go through the thought exercise of what kind of information you'd need to evaluate this kind of claim scientifically. You'll quickly realize how incredibly implausible it would be that anyone would perform (or fund!) a study like this. Seeing as that's never going to happen, You're left with the choice of either (1) believing people's self-report as the best available evidence, or (2) requiring trans people to solve something like the "Chinese Room Argument" just to justify that their own mental states are, in fact, real. It's like asking someone to prove they actually love their spouse, and aren't just simulating that behavior. Who else is subjected to this level of burden of proof? It's totally unreasonable.
  - arbitrage 7y ago
    Personally, the experience I have now at crying at literally anything can be explained quite well (by myself) by the impact of early childhood trauma, and the eventual intense psychotherapy I've undergone in relation to my transition. That is, I eventually learned how to process emotions 'correctly', something I was never taught as a child. This is coincident with my transition. I am unclear if it has been directly caused by HRT, but I haven't ruled it out. However. I absolutely disagree that this is a change caused by "intellectually-driven conformity with gender stereotypes".
nicoburns 7y ago
Found the article https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/28/why-are-transgender-people-immune-to-optical-illusions/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/28/why-are-transgender-pe...

hoorayimhelping 7y ago

>And I'd like to have a word with whoever downvoted this. Why? The comment is essentially: "I read someone claiming something one time." It has no sources, no links to anything to explore or understand, nothing. There's not even a link to the article or story. Just someone making a wild statement on the internet.

liara_k 7y ago
While anecdotes aren't evidence themselves, they're extremely useful (1) when there aren't scientific studies available and (2) for generating theories that can later be tested. Whether they're interpreted as an invitation for further discussion or unjustified proof depends on how responsible the audience is.
- nicoburns 7y ago
  I'd argue that anecdotes are evidence. Albeit much weaker evidence than a scientific study. In the absense of better evidence, it would be foolish to disregard them entirely.
undoware 7y ago
Evidence from someone who has experience with particular medical condition, who has been living with it for years, is not 'ancedotal', it is local knowledge. It might not be accurate, but it's often a good place to begin actual scientific investigation. This isn't a wild statement; it's something I've personally suspected for years, and I'd like to see research around. But just pointing this out cost me -2 karma, which is -- again, anecdotally -- an example of how Hacker News is a toxic environment for marginalized folks. I'd love to see some studies on that too.

majos 7y ago

Can you elaborate on "experienced something similar"?

mffnbs 7y ago

What experiences did you have while on HRT that lead to you to believe this? In general, I'm specifically skeptic of claims of behavioral changes associated with HRT, as I feel as if a lot of those claims have roots in gendered preconceptions of women that have nothing to do with biological differences. People going through HRT will associate personal, unrelated, experiences with the medical transition, but cannot be corroborated through any studies or research.

liara_k 7y ago
Speaking for myself... The most obvious example was my response to emotional situations in fiction. Going from only being able to empathize with characters only on an intellectual level to also being able to empathize on an instinctual/emotional level was was so incredibly obvious it was like going from black and white to color. One the one hand, you could dismiss "I cry at movies now" as just an intellectually-driven conformity with gender stereotypes. You could dismiss my self-report as rationalization--even a dishonest one. On the other hand, what we're fundamentally talking about here is my own mental states--something about which I have first hand observation and you can have only assumptions. Go through the thought exercise of what kind of information you'd need to evaluate this kind of claim scientifically. You'll quickly realize how incredibly implausible it would be that anyone would perform (or fund!) a study like this. Seeing as that's never going to happen, You're left with the choice of either (1) believing people's self-report as the best available evidence, or (2) requiring trans people to solve something like the "Chinese Room Argument" just to justify that their own mental states are, in fact, real. It's like asking someone to prove they actually love their spouse, and aren't just simulating that behavior. Who else is subjected to this level of burden of proof? It's totally unreasonable.
- arbitrage 7y ago
  Personally, the experience I have now at crying at literally anything can be explained quite well (by myself) by the impact of early childhood trauma, and the eventual intense psychotherapy I've undergone in relation to my transition. That is, I eventually learned how to process emotions 'correctly', something I was never taught as a child. This is coincident with my transition. I am unclear if it has been directly caused by HRT, but I haven't ruled it out. However. I absolutely disagree that this is a change caused by "intellectually-driven conformity with gender stereotypes".

nicoburns 7y ago

Found the article https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/28/why-are-transgender-people-immune-to-optical-illusions/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/28/why-are-transgender-pe...