4 ms·

It's not about inter-nation spying. It was about the NSA secretly spying on the US's own citizens, on its own companies. This is not acceptable, and that is why

by dTal 7y ago

It's not about inter-nation spying. It was about the NSA secretly spying on the US's own citizens, on its own companies. This is not acceptable, and that is why it's illegal - it subverts democracy. "China and Russia are doing it" is not an excuse for that - they are examples of countries we should not aspire to be like. Also, regarding this geopolitical information warfare business - none of us were told about this, or asked if this was a game we wanted to play. That is not how democracy is supposed to work. Defense, sure. But the best defense against the current way that Russia/China is weaponizing the internet is sunlight, not secrecy. In this too, the NSA is derelict. Also Snowden didn't "flee to Russia" - that's pure right-wing "talking point" (lie). His passport was suspended by the US State Department while on layover in Moscow.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
lern_too_spel 7y ago
> NSA secretly spying on the US's own citizens There was one program that was arguably capable of doing that, which was collection of phone record metadata. Snowden grabbed and leaked a lot more than that. > Also Snowden didn't "flee to Russia" - that's pure right-wing lie/talking point. Is fleeing to China any better?
- jascii 7y ago
  There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying And no, he didn't flee to china, he transited through Hong Kong, which seems to be a sound tactical choice considering Hong Kongs unique position in international politics.
  - antoniuschan99 7y ago
    I have been waiting to hear his take on the protests going on there because back then he said he chose HK because of the freedoms it exercised.
    - jascii 7y ago
      I think it did at the time, I see the protests as a response to mainland China's efforts to reduce those freedoms.
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    > There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? > he transited through Hong Kong Not by choice. He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong wanted nothing to do with him. “I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United States government in the courts, because I have faith in Hong Kong’s rule of law.” https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259422/edward-snowden-let-hong-kong-people-decide-my-fate https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259422/edward-s...
    - dTal 7y ago
      He was in Hawaii, and not in possession of a teleport. Which country with functioning human rights strong enough to resist American extradition pressure do you suggest he have taken a plane to?
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago
        I wouldn't have concocted some ridiculous conspiracy theory to require fleeing to an oppressive country which I would leak intelligence to, but assuming I were that stupid but not stupid enough to look at countries more closely, I probably would have asked for asylum from Ecuador following Assange's example. Snowden was not being followed until he started leaking secrets, so he could have gone literally anywhere on Earth.
    - jascii 7y ago
      > EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? A lot of it is public record, no need to leak: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago
        What is in the public record does not include intentional spying on Americans as they have alleged.
- dTal 7y ago
  Wow. Can you really not remember the infamous Prism PowerPoint slide? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg And China/PRC != Hong Kong, whatever Beijing would have you believe. Why are you posting propaganda?
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    Yes, I remember how badly Snowden misread it. Prism is a system that ingests data the FBI requested under court ordered wiretaps for specific accounts. The FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit is right there in the slides. https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg This was well-known and commented on at the time Greenwald's articles were being published, with the NYT reporting on the program correctly the very next day by interviewing people actually involved in the program (verifying claims like real journalists — why didn't The Guardian think of that instead of taking the paranoid rants of a barely literate high school dropout at face value?). https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-tech-companies/ https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-... https://medium.com/@alecmuffett/how-to-talk-about-prism-and-not-get-entirely-blown-off-if-youre-an-activist-e2a79d2cd2ad https://medium.com/@alecmuffett/how-to-talk-about-prism-and-... https://medium.com/prism-truth/the-prism-details-matter-82a1791c94d3 https://medium.com/prism-truth/the-prism-details-matter-82a1... > And China/PRC != Hong Kong, whatever Beijing would have you believe. Too bad for Snowden. He immediately leaked intelligence valuable to PRC, thinking that they could help him stay in Hong Kong. If only he had known "PRC != Hong Kong." > Why are you posting propaganda Why are you spreading well-known lies, and why are you calling the truth "propaganda?"
    - torified 7y ago
      >taking the paranoid rants of a barely literate high school dropout at face value? Have you heard Snowden speak? I've not heard many people in my life who are more educated and eloquent.
      - lern_too_spel 7y ago

by dTal 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

lern_too_spel 7y ago

> NSA secretly spying on the US's own citizens There was one program that was arguably capable of doing that, which was collection of phone record metadata. Snowden grabbed and leaked a lot more than that. > Also Snowden didn't "flee to Russia" - that's pure right-wing lie/talking point. Is fleeing to China any better?

jascii 7y ago
There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying And no, he didn't flee to china, he transited through Hong Kong, which seems to be a sound tactical choice considering Hong Kongs unique position in international politics.
- antoniuschan99 7y ago
  I have been waiting to hear his take on the protests going on there because back then he said he chose HK because of the freedoms it exercised.
  - jascii 7y ago
    I think it did at the time, I see the protests as a response to mainland China's efforts to reduce those freedoms.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  > There is a bit more then that: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? > he transited through Hong Kong Not by choice. He wanted to stay in Hong Kong, but Hong Kong wanted nothing to do with him. “I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United States government in the courts, because I have faith in Hong Kong’s rule of law.” https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259422/edward-snowden-let-hong-kong-people-decide-my-fate https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259422/edward-s...
  - dTal 7y ago
    He was in Hawaii, and not in possession of a teleport. Which country with functioning human rights strong enough to resist American extradition pressure do you suggest he have taken a plane to?
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      I wouldn't have concocted some ridiculous conspiracy theory to require fleeing to an oppressive country which I would leak intelligence to, but assuming I were that stupid but not stupid enough to look at countries more closely, I probably would have asked for asylum from Ecuador following Assange's example. Snowden was not being followed until he started leaking secrets, so he could have gone literally anywhere on Earth.
  - jascii 7y ago
    > EFF has no evidence that it was anything more than that. If it was anything more than that, don't you think Snowden would have leaked it? A lot of it is public record, no need to leak: https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago
      What is in the public record does not include intentional spying on Americans as they have alleged.
dTal 7y ago
Wow. Can you really not remember the infamous Prism PowerPoint slide? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Prism_slide_5.jpg And China/PRC != Hong Kong, whatever Beijing would have you believe. Why are you posting propaganda?
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  Yes, I remember how badly Snowden misread it. Prism is a system that ingests data the FBI requested under court ordered wiretaps for specific accounts. The FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit is right there in the slides. https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg https://i.imgur.com/setOJIm.jpg This was well-known and commented on at the time Greenwald's articles were being published, with the NYT reporting on the program correctly the very next day by interviewing people actually involved in the program (verifying claims like real journalists — why didn't The Guardian think of that instead of taking the paranoid rants of a barely literate high school dropout at face value?). https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-to-tech-companies/ https://www.cnet.com/news/no-evidence-of-nsas-direct-access-... https://medium.com/@alecmuffett/how-to-talk-about-prism-and-not-get-entirely-blown-off-if-youre-an-activist-e2a79d2cd2ad https://medium.com/@alecmuffett/how-to-talk-about-prism-and-... https://medium.com/prism-truth/the-prism-details-matter-82a1791c94d3 https://medium.com/prism-truth/the-prism-details-matter-82a1... > And China/PRC != Hong Kong, whatever Beijing would have you believe. Too bad for Snowden. He immediately leaked intelligence valuable to PRC, thinking that they could help him stay in Hong Kong. If only he had known "PRC != Hong Kong." > Why are you posting propaganda Why are you spreading well-known lies, and why are you calling the truth "propaganda?"
  - torified 7y ago
    >taking the paranoid rants of a barely literate high school dropout at face value? Have you heard Snowden speak? I've not heard many people in my life who are more educated and eloquent.
    - lern_too_spel 7y ago