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How do you know that the site being considered significant is tied solely to belief in Hawaiian cosmology? I don’t know much about Hawaiian culture but couldn’t

How do you know that the site being considered significant is tied solely to belief in Hawaiian cosmology? I don’t know much about Hawaiian culture but couldn’t it be the case that a wider proportion of the population considers the site significant for varying reasons? This article looks to imply just that: https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-hawaii https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-... “Inseparable from Hawaiian culture is a love of the land, ’āina. For Hawaiians — who thrived in the islands before foreigners arrived at the end of the 18th century — care and attachment to the land is central to their identities. The term “aloha ’āina,” literally meaning love of the land, has long been a rallying cry for Hawaiians.” I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about.”

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
It seems the point is no one knows if the site is genuinely significant or not. There's a claim it's significant, but the claim doesn't appear to be any more specific than "a demigod lives there". Obviously there's no way to make a rational impact study of the effect of a large telescope on a demigod. I don't think it's about self-righteousness, but it probably is about sovereignty. Some Hawaiians don't like outsiders coming in and building expensive things they won't personally get to use. It's never really about a demigod, because religion is mostly just politics rationalised (?) by appeals to the supernatural, and isn't really about anything supernatural at all.
CamperBob2 7y ago
I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. I wouldn't agree there. If you're a thinking human being, you have a horse in the race. Right now, a bunch of superstitious nitwits are swinging a hammer at its knees.
- moate 7y ago
  Let's just say you are a member of a group of people who have been in a constant cultural conflict with another group of people. For hundreds of years they've inserted themselves into your homelands, force changes to the culture to fit their needs, and generally been entirely disinterested in actively engaging with you as a coequal resident of their space. Then, finally, you're able to find some ways to use their cultural system against them to get your needs met and your voice heard in your homeland. Some of this involves appeals to logic, but others involve appeals to emotion. To you, the ends justify the means. The stakes feel very high. Now imagine some dude on the internet refers to you as a nitwit without really have looked at the larger picture of what your political action within your homeland means within the larger context of your struggle to maintain your culture and be represented as a coequal member of your homeland. How do you think you'd respond to this dude on the internet?
  - roboys 7y ago
    Sounds like Osama Bin Laden, he was trying to get US military bases off of "sacred religious land" in Saudi Arabia. Primary reason for 9/11, he stated.
    - moate 7y ago
      I don't know that "declaration of holy war and terrorist attacks" quite equal "social pressure from lawsuits and protesting" but it was all left vague so I guess that's a read?
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    What does any of that have to do with building a telescope? Sounds more like an extortion scheme. If your culture doesn't contribute to the advancement of humanity, but rather actively stands in the way, then it needs to die.
    - moate 7y ago
      That's a take... 1- This telescope doesn't need to be built here, right now. The world will not end if it isn't built, and all the "benefits" you might claim we gain from this are essentially marginal improvements over the existing half dozen telescopes in that area already. There is no reason that the previous expected agreement of "if you want to build new telescopes you need to decommission an existing one and replace it" can't be honored. 2- Do you know what "extortion" actually is? Do you know what the term "tyranny of the majority" means? Are you familiar with any actual sociological concepts in play in this scenario? Do you actually understand the hypothetical example I tried to walk you through previously, or would you like me to further break down a broad view of what this conflict is about rather than trying to go to snappy talking points and witty one liners? Are you actually just trollin son? These are all earnest questions.

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago

It seems the point is no one knows if the site is genuinely significant or not. There's a claim it's significant, but the claim doesn't appear to be any more specific than "a demigod lives there". Obviously there's no way to make a rational impact study of the effect of a large telescope on a demigod. I don't think it's about self-righteousness, but it probably is about sovereignty. Some Hawaiians don't like outsiders coming in and building expensive things they won't personally get to use. It's never really about a demigod, because religion is mostly just politics rationalised (?) by appeals to the supernatural, and isn't really about anything supernatural at all.

CamperBob2 7y ago

I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. I wouldn't agree there. If you're a thinking human being, you have a horse in the race. Right now, a bunch of superstitious nitwits are swinging a hammer at its knees.

moate 7y ago
Let's just say you are a member of a group of people who have been in a constant cultural conflict with another group of people. For hundreds of years they've inserted themselves into your homelands, force changes to the culture to fit their needs, and generally been entirely disinterested in actively engaging with you as a coequal resident of their space. Then, finally, you're able to find some ways to use their cultural system against them to get your needs met and your voice heard in your homeland. Some of this involves appeals to logic, but others involve appeals to emotion. To you, the ends justify the means. The stakes feel very high. Now imagine some dude on the internet refers to you as a nitwit without really have looked at the larger picture of what your political action within your homeland means within the larger context of your struggle to maintain your culture and be represented as a coequal member of your homeland. How do you think you'd respond to this dude on the internet?
- roboys 7y ago
  Sounds like Osama Bin Laden, he was trying to get US military bases off of "sacred religious land" in Saudi Arabia. Primary reason for 9/11, he stated.
  - moate 7y ago
    I don't know that "declaration of holy war and terrorist attacks" quite equal "social pressure from lawsuits and protesting" but it was all left vague so I guess that's a read?
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  What does any of that have to do with building a telescope? Sounds more like an extortion scheme. If your culture doesn't contribute to the advancement of humanity, but rather actively stands in the way, then it needs to die.
  - moate 7y ago
    That's a take... 1- This telescope doesn't need to be built here, right now. The world will not end if it isn't built, and all the "benefits" you might claim we gain from this are essentially marginal improvements over the existing half dozen telescopes in that area already. There is no reason that the previous expected agreement of "if you want to build new telescopes you need to decommission an existing one and replace it" can't be honored. 2- Do you know what "extortion" actually is? Do you know what the term "tyranny of the majority" means? Are you familiar with any actual sociological concepts in play in this scenario? Do you actually understand the hypothetical example I tried to walk you through previously, or would you like me to further break down a broad view of what this conflict is about rather than trying to go to snappy talking points and witty one liners? Are you actually just trollin son? These are all earnest questions.