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Every source I've found just says "it's sacred in the Hawaiian religion" or "it's a sacred place" but always a vague answer. If you wanted to build on the site

Every source I've found just says "it's sacred in the Hawaiian religion" or "it's a sacred place" but always a vague answer. If you wanted to build on the site of the Wailing Wall or the Kaaba, the opposition would have a very specific list of ways those sites are sacred, with names and events. Additionally, less than 0.5% of Hawaiians practice the Hawaiian religion in question. Frankly I think this is a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about.

gomoboo 7y ago
How do you know that the site being considered significant is tied solely to belief in Hawaiian cosmology? I don’t know much about Hawaiian culture but couldn’t it be the case that a wider proportion of the population considers the site significant for varying reasons? This article looks to imply just that: https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-hawaii https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-... “Inseparable from Hawaiian culture is a love of the land, ’āina. For Hawaiians — who thrived in the islands before foreigners arrived at the end of the 18th century — care and attachment to the land is central to their identities. The term “aloha ’āina,” literally meaning love of the land, has long been a rallying cry for Hawaiians.” I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about.”
- TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
  It seems the point is no one knows if the site is genuinely significant or not. There's a claim it's significant, but the claim doesn't appear to be any more specific than "a demigod lives there". Obviously there's no way to make a rational impact study of the effect of a large telescope on a demigod. I don't think it's about self-righteousness, but it probably is about sovereignty. Some Hawaiians don't like outsiders coming in and building expensive things they won't personally get to use. It's never really about a demigod, because religion is mostly just politics rationalised (?) by appeals to the supernatural, and isn't really about anything supernatural at all.
- CamperBob2 7y ago
  I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. I wouldn't agree there. If you're a thinking human being, you have a horse in the race. Right now, a bunch of superstitious nitwits are swinging a hammer at its knees.
  - moate 7y ago
    Let's just say you are a member of a group of people who have been in a constant cultural conflict with another group of people. For hundreds of years they've inserted themselves into your homelands, force changes to the culture to fit their needs, and generally been entirely disinterested in actively engaging with you as a coequal resident of their space. Then, finally, you're able to find some ways to use their cultural system against them to get your needs met and your voice heard in your homeland. Some of this involves appeals to logic, but others involve appeals to emotion. To you, the ends justify the means. The stakes feel very high. Now imagine some dude on the internet refers to you as a nitwit without really have looked at the larger picture of what your political action within your homeland means within the larger context of your struggle to maintain your culture and be represented as a coequal member of your homeland. How do you think you'd respond to this dude on the internet?
    - roboys 7y ago
      Sounds like Osama Bin Laden, he was trying to get US military bases off of "sacred religious land" in Saudi Arabia. Primary reason for 9/11, he stated.
      - moate 7y ago
        I don't know that "declaration of holy war and terrorist attacks" quite equal "social pressure from lawsuits and protesting" but it was all left vague so I guess that's a read?
    - CamperBob2 7y ago
      What does any of that have to do with building a telescope? Sounds more like an extortion scheme. If your culture doesn't contribute to the advancement of humanity, but rather actively stands in the way, then it needs to die.
masklinn 7y ago
>> always a vague answer. > Mauna a Wākea has long been a site of sacred cultural activity for Kānaka ʻŌiwi, at times serving as a burial ground. The sacredness of the Mauna is embedded in its Kānaka ʻŌiwi name, which reflects its connection to the sky: Wākea is the sky father in Kānaka ʻŌiwi cosmology. >> Frankly I think this is a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. > Beyond their patent offensiveness, such characterizations are as false as they are unhelpful. “Science and culture have long coexisted in Hawaiʻi,” Ecohydrologist Aurora Kagana-Viviani wrote in a recent Medium post, in which she traced the ways the scientific establishment all too often continues to ignore this evident fact. What have not always coexisted are scientific inquiry and fundamental respect for the people who come under science’s microscopes—or inhabit the realms of its telescopes. https://www.thenation.com/article/mauna-kea-tmt-colonial-science/ https://www.thenation.com/article/mauna-kea-tmt-colonial-sci...
goodcanadian 7y ago
It's a bit complicated; there are sacred sites all around the summit, but nothing on the summit, itself. The claim is that the summit was so sacred that they didn't even build temples there. My, admittedly cynical, take is that there is nothing on the summit because it is cold and barren and there isn't enough air to breathe. However, it is clear that Mauna Kea, in general, was an important place in Hawaiian religion and spirituality.
- PopePompus 7y ago
  Ancient Hawaiians also constructed the largest primitive rock quarry in the world near the summit of Mauna Kea (https://www.nps.gov/places/mauna-kea-adz-quarry.htm https://www.nps.gov/places/mauna-kea-adz-quarry.htm), to mine dense rock for stone tools. So it's hard to believe that pre-contact Native Hawaiians believed that the summit of Mauna Kea was too sacred to build near (the TMT would be further below the summit than most of the existing telescopes [only the VLBA antenna would be lower]).
  - roboys 7y ago
    What percentage of a total community has to believe something is sacred before it is accepted as so? The idea of going with what the majority thinks falls apart in this context.
gerbilly 7y ago
That's the result of colonialism, which usually promotes forced assimilation into the colonizers culture. If you ask most natives in North America whey certain areas/things/animals are sacred, you might also get a 'vague,' answer because we have only recently stopped trying to systematically eliminate the native's culture and religion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc...
simplicio 7y ago
I've always thought that if it was possible to not paint the telescopes white (and I realize it isn't), it would be a lot less of an issue. If they were painted brown they'd basically be invisible to most of the island. Instead, on a clear day, you can see them from almost anywhere on the Northern half of the island. The result is that if you're someone whose already angry about natives having lost control of the islands, foreign tourists, etc. then the fact that you also have these foreign looking domes looming over the highest point in the island perpetually at the corner of your field of view is likely to provide a constant low-level irritant. I suspect that, more than the somewhat tenuous claims of the summit having a history as a sacred site, are why the telescopes have become a focus for protest.
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
>Frankly I think this is a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. Even if it were, would that invalidate their right to say what gets built on their hill in a way genuine religious sentiment wouldn't? All I see is Scientists making Science look bad to the man on the street, again.
bebop 7y ago
Disclaimer: I am not a native Hawaiian, so this can be taken with a grain of salt. In the Hawaiian religious beliefs, the Mana (spiritual power) of a person does not end with their life. The Iwi (bones/remains) still contain the Mana of a person. In addition, traditionally the Ali'i (noble people) were held in high regard, and were often seen as holding a tremendous amount of Mana - which was their mandate to rule -. Mauna a Wakea (Muana Kea - named for Wakea (Sky Father), one of two primal deities), was a traditional burial site for Ali'i. So the sacredness of the mountain is derived from the fact that it is in close proximity to Wakea, and also importantly because the Mana of the Ali'i are believed to still be present. As a side note disturbing Ali'i remains is thought to be Kapu (forbidden for spiritual reasons, often with drastic punishment - traditionally -). So while to outsiders it may seem like "a bunch of contrarians" the story is much more nuanced. And trying to explain a full belief system in a news sound bite, I imagine would be difficult. As others have pointed out there is a long history of oppression and discrimination as well, so native Hawaiians have a reason to be agitated that their voice is not being respected. If anyone with more knowledge can correct/elaborate on the ideas above, I would appreciate that.

gomoboo 7y ago

How do you know that the site being considered significant is tied solely to belief in Hawaiian cosmology? I don’t know much about Hawaiian culture but couldn’t it be the case that a wider proportion of the population considers the site significant for varying reasons? This article looks to imply just that: https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-hawaii https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/24/20706930/mauna-kea-... “Inseparable from Hawaiian culture is a love of the land, ’āina. For Hawaiians — who thrived in the islands before foreigners arrived at the end of the 18th century — care and attachment to the land is central to their identities. The term “aloha ’āina,” literally meaning love of the land, has long been a rallying cry for Hawaiians.” I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about.”

TheOtherHobbes 7y ago
It seems the point is no one knows if the site is genuinely significant or not. There's a claim it's significant, but the claim doesn't appear to be any more specific than "a demigod lives there". Obviously there's no way to make a rational impact study of the effect of a large telescope on a demigod. I don't think it's about self-righteousness, but it probably is about sovereignty. Some Hawaiians don't like outsiders coming in and building expensive things they won't personally get to use. It's never really about a demigod, because religion is mostly just politics rationalised (?) by appeals to the supernatural, and isn't really about anything supernatural at all.
CamperBob2 7y ago
I don’t have a horse in the race but feel there might be more to it than “...a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. I wouldn't agree there. If you're a thinking human being, you have a horse in the race. Right now, a bunch of superstitious nitwits are swinging a hammer at its knees.
- moate 7y ago
  Let's just say you are a member of a group of people who have been in a constant cultural conflict with another group of people. For hundreds of years they've inserted themselves into your homelands, force changes to the culture to fit their needs, and generally been entirely disinterested in actively engaging with you as a coequal resident of their space. Then, finally, you're able to find some ways to use their cultural system against them to get your needs met and your voice heard in your homeland. Some of this involves appeals to logic, but others involve appeals to emotion. To you, the ends justify the means. The stakes feel very high. Now imagine some dude on the internet refers to you as a nitwit without really have looked at the larger picture of what your political action within your homeland means within the larger context of your struggle to maintain your culture and be represented as a coequal member of your homeland. How do you think you'd respond to this dude on the internet?
  - roboys 7y ago
    Sounds like Osama Bin Laden, he was trying to get US military bases off of "sacred religious land" in Saudi Arabia. Primary reason for 9/11, he stated.
    - moate 7y ago
      I don't know that "declaration of holy war and terrorist attacks" quite equal "social pressure from lawsuits and protesting" but it was all left vague so I guess that's a read?
  - CamperBob2 7y ago
    What does any of that have to do with building a telescope? Sounds more like an extortion scheme. If your culture doesn't contribute to the advancement of humanity, but rather actively stands in the way, then it needs to die.

masklinn 7y ago

>> always a vague answer. > Mauna a Wākea has long been a site of sacred cultural activity for Kānaka ʻŌiwi, at times serving as a burial ground. The sacredness of the Mauna is embedded in its Kānaka ʻŌiwi name, which reflects its connection to the sky: Wākea is the sky father in Kānaka ʻŌiwi cosmology. >> Frankly I think this is a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. > Beyond their patent offensiveness, such characterizations are as false as they are unhelpful. “Science and culture have long coexisted in Hawaiʻi,” Ecohydrologist Aurora Kagana-Viviani wrote in a recent Medium post, in which she traced the ways the scientific establishment all too often continues to ignore this evident fact. What have not always coexisted are scientific inquiry and fundamental respect for the people who come under science’s microscopes—or inhabit the realms of its telescopes. https://www.thenation.com/article/mauna-kea-tmt-colonial-science/ https://www.thenation.com/article/mauna-kea-tmt-colonial-sci...

goodcanadian 7y ago

It's a bit complicated; there are sacred sites all around the summit, but nothing on the summit, itself. The claim is that the summit was so sacred that they didn't even build temples there. My, admittedly cynical, take is that there is nothing on the summit because it is cold and barren and there isn't enough air to breathe. However, it is clear that Mauna Kea, in general, was an important place in Hawaiian religion and spirituality.

PopePompus 7y ago
Ancient Hawaiians also constructed the largest primitive rock quarry in the world near the summit of Mauna Kea (https://www.nps.gov/places/mauna-kea-adz-quarry.htm https://www.nps.gov/places/mauna-kea-adz-quarry.htm), to mine dense rock for stone tools. So it's hard to believe that pre-contact Native Hawaiians believed that the summit of Mauna Kea was too sacred to build near (the TMT would be further below the summit than most of the existing telescopes [only the VLBA antenna would be lower]).
- roboys 7y ago
  What percentage of a total community has to believe something is sacred before it is accepted as so? The idea of going with what the majority thinks falls apart in this context.

gerbilly 7y ago

That's the result of colonialism, which usually promotes forced assimilation into the colonizers culture. If you ask most natives in North America whey certain areas/things/animals are sacred, you might also get a 'vague,' answer because we have only recently stopped trying to systematically eliminate the native's culture and religion. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_school_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Indian_residential_sc...

simplicio 7y ago

I've always thought that if it was possible to not paint the telescopes white (and I realize it isn't), it would be a lot less of an issue. If they were painted brown they'd basically be invisible to most of the island. Instead, on a clear day, you can see them from almost anywhere on the Northern half of the island. The result is that if you're someone whose already angry about natives having lost control of the islands, foreign tourists, etc. then the fact that you also have these foreign looking domes looming over the highest point in the island perpetually at the corner of your field of view is likely to provide a constant low-level irritant. I suspect that, more than the somewhat tenuous claims of the summit having a history as a sacred site, are why the telescopes have become a focus for protest.

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

>Frankly I think this is a bunch of contrarians opposing the construction just to have something to feel self-righteous about. Even if it were, would that invalidate their right to say what gets built on their hill in a way genuine religious sentiment wouldn't? All I see is Scientists making Science look bad to the man on the street, again.

bebop 7y ago

Disclaimer: I am not a native Hawaiian, so this can be taken with a grain of salt. In the Hawaiian religious beliefs, the Mana (spiritual power) of a person does not end with their life. The Iwi (bones/remains) still contain the Mana of a person. In addition, traditionally the Ali'i (noble people) were held in high regard, and were often seen as holding a tremendous amount of Mana - which was their mandate to rule -. Mauna a Wakea (Muana Kea - named for Wakea (Sky Father), one of two primal deities), was a traditional burial site for Ali'i. So the sacredness of the mountain is derived from the fact that it is in close proximity to Wakea, and also importantly because the Mana of the Ali'i are believed to still be present. As a side note disturbing Ali'i remains is thought to be Kapu (forbidden for spiritual reasons, often with drastic punishment - traditionally -). So while to outsiders it may seem like "a bunch of contrarians" the story is much more nuanced. And trying to explain a full belief system in a news sound bite, I imagine would be difficult. As others have pointed out there is a long history of oppression and discrimination as well, so native Hawaiians have a reason to be agitated that their voice is not being respected. If anyone with more knowledge can correct/elaborate on the ideas above, I would appreciate that.