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Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is fine

Maybe I'm being too picky? Or a maybe I'm just in the minority, bit I don't really like using Sonic. I mean, their internet works, and customer support is fine (but I've had as good a service from Comcast too). What I find annoying from Sonic is their billing process. I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? What I find somewhat dishonest, is how the sell it. I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality, but it's sort of strange that you get excited about ads that say and "1GBPS internet at $40 a month" and only a year later realize that you're paying $75 a month instead. And that's something that's public, who knows what else about their business is as deceptive. I suppose that's why Sonic has survived. I suppose that's the kind of business you need to run if you want to have a successful ISP.

nudiustertian 7y ago
> I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? I've never used Sonic but this describes my Comcast experience completely. Frustrating that we cant get away from these trappings
- proverbialbunny 7y ago
  I don't know where you live, so maybe your situation is that, but I've been on Comcast for years over multiple houses, and I've always owned my own modem and never have had any hidden fees. It could be tech support lied to you. It wouldn't be a first.
mrigor 7y ago
You don't have to rent their modem
- Lammy 7y ago
  You can send it back, but (supposedly) if you do so they charge you a fee to send a tech out in the future. I say supposedly because it seems like a weed-out warning to reduce support tickets from people who made their own problems, but I haven’t had to find out since my Sonic fiber has been flawless for two years. There’s an ONT on the wall where the fiber comes through, providing one data jack and one phone jack. I just plug an ethernet cable between it and my FreeBSD router PC, request a DHCP lease on that interface, and go.
Avamander 7y ago
10$? Do you get a dedicated landline-line or is it actually just VoIP?
- cbhl 7y ago
  That depends on whether you get ADSL (6 Mbps per copper phone line, resold AT&T, but a real phone line) or Fiber Optic (gigabit fiber optic to the apartment, but you get an additional box that exposes a phone jack plugged into the ONT in the closet, so presumably VOIP). I've seen Sonic hook up places in SF with both; they sell the ADSL to try and get the revenue to build out more Fiber. The Sonic technician I spoke to at my last apartment said we could just leave the phone line unplugged if we didn't need it, but that setting it up was not optional for some bureaucratic reason. (Even made us pick a phone number from a list...)
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    That depends on whether you get ADSL (6 Mbps per copper phone line, resold AT&T, but a real phone line) or Fiber Optic (gigabit fiber optic to the apartment, but you get an additional box that exposes a phone jack plugged into the ONT in the closet, so presumably VOIP). ADSL2 goes up to around 20 Mbps, VDSL up to around 50 Mbps. Sonic may or may not still sell bonded DSL service. I believe the only resold AT&T service these days is the FTTN offering (resold U-Verse with all the nastiness that involves).
    - terinjokes 7y ago
      Where I was living in SOMA, it was resold U-Verse that wasn't even FTTN. It was several thousand feet of copper back to the central office. No one knew the exact length, as those records were lost. Was ecstatic finally moving away from that place to somewhere else.
      - cbhl 7y ago
        I've had ADSL2 and VDSL on Bell Canada lines in Ontario, but last I checked (maybe four years ago?) I was under the impression that in SF proper AT&T wasn't able to get permission to build out the nodes to do FTTN/VDSL in many parts of the city. Since then, I've only lived in new construction where they have fiber to the unit...
inetknght 7y ago
> I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality I'm not a lawyer but I'd strongly argue the other way around. Advertising something disconnected with reality is (or, should be) illegal. It's called False Advertising or Deceptive Advertising and it's unfortunately the status quo.
chaostheory 7y ago
> 1GBPS internet at $40 a month" and only a year later realize that you're paying $75 a month instead I don’t feel you realize how good you have it. There are even more annoying hidden charges from Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon. Moreover, for only 400 mbps I pay $200 a month while you only pay $75 for fiber internet. To be clear my cost is only a temporary discount that will shoot up to nearly $400 in a few months. At which time I will be forced to downgrade You’re being too picky given the state of the ISP duopoly market. I would gladly switch ISP providers with you if it were possible
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  I don’t feel you realize how good you have it. What you're missing is that the price is the same for fiber and DSL. If you're in a part of the Bay Area where all you can get is 3 Mbps DSL from Sonic, they'll gladly charge you that same price (and yes I did this for a while until I realized that Sonic wasn't particularly loyal to their customers). Oh, and $40 is the promo rate these days.
  - chaostheory 7y ago
    Yeah I know about their AT&T piggyback DSL service. Yeah, it isn’t a good deal, but $40 for fiber internet is unbelievable. What’s sad is that I don’t live that far away from you. Thanks for your post though. It reminded me to talk to Comcast again. Now I’m paying $140 for 1 gbps
    - newman314 7y ago
      Sonic gig fiber is only $40 if you use thier fiber. Where they resell ATT fiber, it's $80/mth for the first year then jumps to $90.
      - zonidjan 7y ago
        That's still quite good compared to some parts of the country (like anyone who has to use Spectrum).
Random_BSD_Geek 7y ago
It sounds like you're buying their DSL service. DSL is delivered over the telephone network's copper. A copper pair is necessary to deliver DSL. In the 90s, legislation was passed that forced the ILECs to open up their copper networks to anyone. This allowed companies like Covad and Sonic to sell DSL over copper that was owned by the phone company, but the phone company got to charge for access. (I believe this legislation was recently reversed or modified in the phone companies' favor but don't know any details.) So when you buy DSL you're buying both a few copper wires from the phone company and internet service from the guys on the other end of those wires. As for who needs a landline... wires can be more reliable than radio waves under certain circumstances.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  It sounds like you're buying their DSL service. DSL is delivered over the telephone network's copper. A copper pair is necessary to deliver DSL. Nope. Before they rolled out the fiber product you could BYOD. Of course before Fusion they would sell you service without a contract and then expect you to call them every time they raised the prices. With the current Fusion offerings (ADSL, VDSL, AT&T FTTN, FTTH) they promise it's a $40/mo rate, but then omit that they charge $10/mo for the modem rental. You CAN opt out of the modem rental but then the monthly rate goes up to $50/mo. There's no option to purchase the modem outright (and it a junky Pace unit). At least that's how things were when they first rolled out fiber. There was a ton of confusion and the phone reps dished out information contradicting the support reps who post in the Sonic support forum. Things may have changed since then but I doubt it as Sonic seemed extraordinarily attached to their subpar modem/router things. I ended up paying $10/mo for a defective modem I never used because it was easier than dealing with support. Oh, and let's say you're a long-time Sonic customer that wanted to upgrade to fiber. Want the $40/mo promo rate? HA! Good luck. Sonic has shifted towards giving the finger to loyal customers in favor of spending beaucoup bucks on new ones. For a while they were even offering ~6 months free if you got a coupon code from Nextdoor (UGH).
  - azinman2 7y ago
    It’s $40/mo for the first 6 or so months, then $60/mo. They have been very clear on that in all of their advertising.
JustSomeNobody 7y ago
> I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality... It actually is supposed to. A lot of companies just seem to get away with not.
- reaperducer 7y ago
  Because people have become so used to it that they forget to complain, and to whom they should complain.
reaperducer 7y ago
Who in 2019 needs a landline? People with house alarms. People with fax machines. People with medical equipment that sends information to their doctors a couple of times a day. People who don't trust VOIP providers. People who want to be properly geolocated when they dial 911. People who want to use a phone when the power goes out for longer than a cell phone can hold a charge (think hurricane-prone states). Here's a good one: People who want to talk on the phone. I stayed on a remote ranch in New Mexico back in April. The owner was at the next ranch over, about five miles away. I needed to call her, so I picked up the phone. A real land line phone. Good Lord, I'd forgotten what a quality phone call sounds like. It was as if she was right there in the room with me. No awkward cellular delay. Talking over each other was OK and natural and you could still understand the other person. It was an absolute delight. I already have my current place wired with VOIP, but in my next home I'm going to get a landline. Landlines may not fit into your lifestyle or mindset, but that doesn't mean they don't have value.
- scottlocklin 7y ago
  Also people who give a shit about latency. G4 is absolute shit for latency, as are all other wireless solutions.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  No landline has sounded anywhere near as good as FaceTime Audio to me.
  - adammenges 7y ago
    Personally this has been my experience, too
- newman314 7y ago
  But one should be able to opt out. The problem is that Sonic insists on bundling it in.
- Animats 7y ago
  "Good Lord, I'd forgotten what a quality phone call sounds like. It was as if she was right there in the room with me. No awkward cellular delay." Right. I have a friend in Switzerland who had an ISDN voice line. Synchronous 64Kb/s digital voice end to end. No jitter. Swisscom discontinued that recently and now he has inferior VoIP.
megaframe 7y ago
I have Sonic, and it's $64.05 not $75. The promo router is a bit annoying but they only charge you if you return it before the promo period ends or if you keep it after. The land line is annoying but still comes out way cheaper Comcast (at least any plan worthwhile). I get Bi-directional 1Gbps, top upload from Comcast is 35MBps. Tested it at 896MBs down/941MBps up from work which has connection that can keep up. Also tested fast.com and speedtest.net *Worth noting most routers you buy at something like Best Buy can't hit those rates in both directions.
an_opabinia 7y ago
As a Sonic subscriber, I can vouch that this is an accurate report, and that their business model is fundamentally to advertise a low price and charge a high one hoping you’ll like gigabit Ethernet enough to keep it. Another way of looking at this is search engine- and eCommerce-driven price discovery hasn’t given us better prices or more accurate ones, it has just moved money from one set of bad actors (people who rip you off) to another (people who lie about the real price).
- wahern 7y ago
  That's just not true. They simply don't include taxes in the advertised price, same as everybody else, and because they include voice service in all their plans the taxes add up. You also don't need to use their routers (I don't), but they charge you an extra $10--presumably because of the increased support calls. Here's my latest invoice. I've had Sonic Fiber for a few years so these are the non-promo numbers: Voice Federal Subscriber Line Charge Fee - 6.50 Voice Federal Universal Service Fund Fee - 2.43 Voice California Lifeline Telephone Service Surcharge - 0.36 Voice California Deaf and Disabled Telecom Program Surcharge - 0.04 Voice California High Cost Fund-A Surcharge - 0.03 Voice California Teleconnect Fund Surcharge - 0.06 Voice California Advanced Services Fund Surcharge - 0.04 Voice California 911 Emergency Surcharge - 0.06 Voice San Francisco Access Line Fee - 3.49 Voice California Public Utility Commission User Fee - 0.03 Voice FCC Interstate Telecom Service Provider Fee - 0.03 Property Tax Allotment Surcharge - 0.36 Voice Regulatory Recovery Surcharge - 0.77 Fusion Fiber Phone Service - 0.00 Fusion Fiber - 1 Gbps - 50.00 Fusion Fiber Information - Data $40.00 Voice $10.00 - 0.00 Charge Collapsed prorate for 2019-07-01 to 2019-08-10 for Voice Federal Universal Service Fund Fee - 0.73 Total $64.93 As you can see above, the taxes can vary between localities, so it would be difficult to advertise a specific price if they included them. But, again, nobody else does this. Why single out Sonic in this regard? Equivocating Sonic's product and quality of service with AT&T and Comcast just because of this issue is... not helpful. AT&T fiber service starts out higher than this for less bandwidth, before taxes.
  - inferiorhuman 7y ago
    If everyone jumped off of a bridge, would you?
proverbialbunny 7y ago
I switched over to Sonic 1gpbs service last month. I'm in the SF/Bay Area too. Out here it's $80 a month for the first 12 months, and then $90 a month, but the only hidden service fee I'm getting is the $9.95 a month modem. I can buy one for $70, but tech support told me I'm not allow to remove the modem they issue, which is odd. They didn't say my service would cost $10 more a month. Still, $90 a month is cheaper than Comcast and AT&T. All you guys paying $40, and even if it turns into $75 is a sweet deal. It's one of the best deals in the country.
Rediscover 7y ago
> Who in 2019 needs a landline? Certain first responders, eg those who handle oil spills on mountains in the Pacific North West.
atarian 7y ago
I'm also pretty disappointed with all the fees that showed up on my bill as well. It's faster than my previous service, but not by much. I'll be switching back once my year is over.
tlrobinson 7y ago
I recall reading something about Sonic may be including the landline so they can collect some government subsidy.

nudiustertian 7y ago

> I dislike that they foist a random router onto you and charge you $10 a month (and charge you if you want to return it). I also dislike that they force a landline on you and charge you another $10 on you. Who in 2019 needs a landline? I've never used Sonic but this describes my Comcast experience completely. Frustrating that we cant get away from these trappings

proverbialbunny 7y ago
I don't know where you live, so maybe your situation is that, but I've been on Comcast for years over multiple houses, and I've always owned my own modem and never have had any hidden fees. It could be tech support lied to you. It wouldn't be a first.

mrigor 7y ago

You don't have to rent their modem

Lammy 7y ago
You can send it back, but (supposedly) if you do so they charge you a fee to send a tech out in the future. I say supposedly because it seems like a weed-out warning to reduce support tickets from people who made their own problems, but I haven’t had to find out since my Sonic fiber has been flawless for two years. There’s an ONT on the wall where the fiber comes through, providing one data jack and one phone jack. I just plug an ethernet cable between it and my FreeBSD router PC, request a DHCP lease on that interface, and go.

Avamander 7y ago

10$? Do you get a dedicated landline-line or is it actually just VoIP?

cbhl 7y ago
That depends on whether you get ADSL (6 Mbps per copper phone line, resold AT&T, but a real phone line) or Fiber Optic (gigabit fiber optic to the apartment, but you get an additional box that exposes a phone jack plugged into the ONT in the closet, so presumably VOIP). I've seen Sonic hook up places in SF with both; they sell the ADSL to try and get the revenue to build out more Fiber. The Sonic technician I spoke to at my last apartment said we could just leave the phone line unplugged if we didn't need it, but that setting it up was not optional for some bureaucratic reason. (Even made us pick a phone number from a list...)
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  That depends on whether you get ADSL (6 Mbps per copper phone line, resold AT&T, but a real phone line) or Fiber Optic (gigabit fiber optic to the apartment, but you get an additional box that exposes a phone jack plugged into the ONT in the closet, so presumably VOIP). ADSL2 goes up to around 20 Mbps, VDSL up to around 50 Mbps. Sonic may or may not still sell bonded DSL service. I believe the only resold AT&T service these days is the FTTN offering (resold U-Verse with all the nastiness that involves).
  - terinjokes 7y ago
    Where I was living in SOMA, it was resold U-Verse that wasn't even FTTN. It was several thousand feet of copper back to the central office. No one knew the exact length, as those records were lost. Was ecstatic finally moving away from that place to somewhere else.
    - cbhl 7y ago
      I've had ADSL2 and VDSL on Bell Canada lines in Ontario, but last I checked (maybe four years ago?) I was under the impression that in SF proper AT&T wasn't able to get permission to build out the nodes to do FTTN/VDSL in many parts of the city. Since then, I've only lived in new construction where they have fiber to the unit...

inetknght 7y ago

> I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality I'm not a lawyer but I'd strongly argue the other way around. Advertising something disconnected with reality is (or, should be) illegal. It's called False Advertising or Deceptive Advertising and it's unfortunately the status quo.

chaostheory 7y ago

> 1GBPS internet at $40 a month" and only a year later realize that you're paying $75 a month instead I don’t feel you realize how good you have it. There are even more annoying hidden charges from Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon. Moreover, for only 400 mbps I pay $200 a month while you only pay $75 for fiber internet. To be clear my cost is only a temporary discount that will shoot up to nearly $400 in a few months. At which time I will be forced to downgrade You’re being too picky given the state of the ISP duopoly market. I would gladly switch ISP providers with you if it were possible

inferiorhuman 7y ago
I don’t feel you realize how good you have it. What you're missing is that the price is the same for fiber and DSL. If you're in a part of the Bay Area where all you can get is 3 Mbps DSL from Sonic, they'll gladly charge you that same price (and yes I did this for a while until I realized that Sonic wasn't particularly loyal to their customers). Oh, and $40 is the promo rate these days.
- chaostheory 7y ago
  Yeah I know about their AT&T piggyback DSL service. Yeah, it isn’t a good deal, but $40 for fiber internet is unbelievable. What’s sad is that I don’t live that far away from you. Thanks for your post though. It reminded me to talk to Comcast again. Now I’m paying $140 for 1 gbps
  - newman314 7y ago
    Sonic gig fiber is only $40 if you use thier fiber. Where they resell ATT fiber, it's $80/mth for the first year then jumps to $90.
    - zonidjan 7y ago
      That's still quite good compared to some parts of the country (like anyone who has to use Spectrum).

Random_BSD_Geek 7y ago

It sounds like you're buying their DSL service. DSL is delivered over the telephone network's copper. A copper pair is necessary to deliver DSL. In the 90s, legislation was passed that forced the ILECs to open up their copper networks to anyone. This allowed companies like Covad and Sonic to sell DSL over copper that was owned by the phone company, but the phone company got to charge for access. (I believe this legislation was recently reversed or modified in the phone companies' favor but don't know any details.) So when you buy DSL you're buying both a few copper wires from the phone company and internet service from the guys on the other end of those wires. As for who needs a landline... wires can be more reliable than radio waves under certain circumstances.

inferiorhuman 7y ago
It sounds like you're buying their DSL service. DSL is delivered over the telephone network's copper. A copper pair is necessary to deliver DSL. Nope. Before they rolled out the fiber product you could BYOD. Of course before Fusion they would sell you service without a contract and then expect you to call them every time they raised the prices. With the current Fusion offerings (ADSL, VDSL, AT&T FTTN, FTTH) they promise it's a $40/mo rate, but then omit that they charge $10/mo for the modem rental. You CAN opt out of the modem rental but then the monthly rate goes up to $50/mo. There's no option to purchase the modem outright (and it a junky Pace unit). At least that's how things were when they first rolled out fiber. There was a ton of confusion and the phone reps dished out information contradicting the support reps who post in the Sonic support forum. Things may have changed since then but I doubt it as Sonic seemed extraordinarily attached to their subpar modem/router things. I ended up paying $10/mo for a defective modem I never used because it was easier than dealing with support. Oh, and let's say you're a long-time Sonic customer that wanted to upgrade to fiber. Want the $40/mo promo rate? HA! Good luck. Sonic has shifted towards giving the finger to loyal customers in favor of spending beaucoup bucks on new ones. For a while they were even offering ~6 months free if you got a coupon code from Nextdoor (UGH).
- azinman2 7y ago
  It’s $40/mo for the first 6 or so months, then $60/mo. They have been very clear on that in all of their advertising.

JustSomeNobody 7y ago

> I get that most advertising is not supposed to reflect reality... It actually is supposed to. A lot of companies just seem to get away with not.

reaperducer 7y ago
Because people have become so used to it that they forget to complain, and to whom they should complain.

reaperducer 7y ago

Who in 2019 needs a landline? People with house alarms. People with fax machines. People with medical equipment that sends information to their doctors a couple of times a day. People who don't trust VOIP providers. People who want to be properly geolocated when they dial 911. People who want to use a phone when the power goes out for longer than a cell phone can hold a charge (think hurricane-prone states). Here's a good one: People who want to talk on the phone. I stayed on a remote ranch in New Mexico back in April. The owner was at the next ranch over, about five miles away. I needed to call her, so I picked up the phone. A real land line phone. Good Lord, I'd forgotten what a quality phone call sounds like. It was as if she was right there in the room with me. No awkward cellular delay. Talking over each other was OK and natural and you could still understand the other person. It was an absolute delight. I already have my current place wired with VOIP, but in my next home I'm going to get a landline. Landlines may not fit into your lifestyle or mindset, but that doesn't mean they don't have value.

scottlocklin 7y ago
Also people who give a shit about latency. G4 is absolute shit for latency, as are all other wireless solutions.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
No landline has sounded anywhere near as good as FaceTime Audio to me.
- adammenges 7y ago
  Personally this has been my experience, too
newman314 7y ago
But one should be able to opt out. The problem is that Sonic insists on bundling it in.
Animats 7y ago
"Good Lord, I'd forgotten what a quality phone call sounds like. It was as if she was right there in the room with me. No awkward cellular delay." Right. I have a friend in Switzerland who had an ISDN voice line. Synchronous 64Kb/s digital voice end to end. No jitter. Swisscom discontinued that recently and now he has inferior VoIP.

megaframe 7y ago

I have Sonic, and it's $64.05 not $75. The promo router is a bit annoying but they only charge you if you return it before the promo period ends or if you keep it after. The land line is annoying but still comes out way cheaper Comcast (at least any plan worthwhile). I get Bi-directional 1Gbps, top upload from Comcast is 35MBps. Tested it at 896MBs down/941MBps up from work which has connection that can keep up. Also tested fast.com and speedtest.net *Worth noting most routers you buy at something like Best Buy can't hit those rates in both directions.

an_opabinia 7y ago

As a Sonic subscriber, I can vouch that this is an accurate report, and that their business model is fundamentally to advertise a low price and charge a high one hoping you’ll like gigabit Ethernet enough to keep it. Another way of looking at this is search engine- and eCommerce-driven price discovery hasn’t given us better prices or more accurate ones, it has just moved money from one set of bad actors (people who rip you off) to another (people who lie about the real price).

wahern 7y ago
That's just not true. They simply don't include taxes in the advertised price, same as everybody else, and because they include voice service in all their plans the taxes add up. You also don't need to use their routers (I don't), but they charge you an extra $10--presumably because of the increased support calls. Here's my latest invoice. I've had Sonic Fiber for a few years so these are the non-promo numbers: Voice Federal Subscriber Line Charge Fee - 6.50 Voice Federal Universal Service Fund Fee - 2.43 Voice California Lifeline Telephone Service Surcharge - 0.36 Voice California Deaf and Disabled Telecom Program Surcharge - 0.04 Voice California High Cost Fund-A Surcharge - 0.03 Voice California Teleconnect Fund Surcharge - 0.06 Voice California Advanced Services Fund Surcharge - 0.04 Voice California 911 Emergency Surcharge - 0.06 Voice San Francisco Access Line Fee - 3.49 Voice California Public Utility Commission User Fee - 0.03 Voice FCC Interstate Telecom Service Provider Fee - 0.03 Property Tax Allotment Surcharge - 0.36 Voice Regulatory Recovery Surcharge - 0.77 Fusion Fiber Phone Service - 0.00 Fusion Fiber - 1 Gbps - 50.00 Fusion Fiber Information - Data $40.00 Voice $10.00 - 0.00 Charge Collapsed prorate for 2019-07-01 to 2019-08-10 for Voice Federal Universal Service Fund Fee - 0.73 Total $64.93 As you can see above, the taxes can vary between localities, so it would be difficult to advertise a specific price if they included them. But, again, nobody else does this. Why single out Sonic in this regard? Equivocating Sonic's product and quality of service with AT&T and Comcast just because of this issue is... not helpful. AT&T fiber service starts out higher than this for less bandwidth, before taxes.
- inferiorhuman 7y ago
  If everyone jumped off of a bridge, would you?

proverbialbunny 7y ago

I switched over to Sonic 1gpbs service last month. I'm in the SF/Bay Area too. Out here it's $80 a month for the first 12 months, and then $90 a month, but the only hidden service fee I'm getting is the $9.95 a month modem. I can buy one for $70, but tech support told me I'm not allow to remove the modem they issue, which is odd. They didn't say my service would cost $10 more a month. Still, $90 a month is cheaper than Comcast and AT&T. All you guys paying $40, and even if it turns into $75 is a sweet deal. It's one of the best deals in the country.

Rediscover 7y ago

> Who in 2019 needs a landline? Certain first responders, eg those who handle oil spills on mountains in the Pacific North West.

atarian 7y ago

I'm also pretty disappointed with all the fees that showed up on my bill as well. It's faster than my previous service, but not by much. I'll be switching back once my year is over.

tlrobinson 7y ago

I recall reading something about Sonic may be including the landline so they can collect some government subsidy.