6 ms·

No, Professors Aren't Discriminating Against Conservative Students

32 points by lnguyen 7y ago

listenallyall 7y ago
Pacific Standard's headline is flat wrong: "when controlling for SAT scores and demographics, differences between liberal and conservative students are modest. For example, holding all else constant, the most liberal student would enjoy a 0.16 point advantage over the most conservative student on a 7 point scale. Given our large sample size, this difference is statistically significant." (page 11 of the actual paper) Modest. And statistically significant.
geebee 7y ago
I'm actually not terribly surprised to hear this. Bret Weinstein may have been (and continue to be) a lifelong liberal, but from what I know about him, I wouldn't expect him or professors like him to discriminate against conservative students. Nor would I expect Nicolas Christakis to discriminate against conservatives, I don't know him other than by what I've seen and heard on the media, but this would seem very out of character. Yes, professors lean left, but these are still, by and large, people who devoted their lives to scholarly pursuits, and often show a very deep and principled adherence to the pursuit of truth, where data and analysis takes you. Professors have long been further to the left of mainstream society and their students, but until very recently, conservatives and republicans, in polls, have viewed universities as having a very positive effect on society. The collapse and political divide is recent. It is driven, to an extent, by a effort to associate liberal professors with the very worst attributes of "cancel" culture. Unfortunately, while I continue to feel positively about universities, I can no longer agree that this narrative is entirely fabricated, either. My understanding is that college administrators tend to run more left wing than college professors, and they may contribute more to the campus climate than professors do - their ranks have swelled considerably in recent years. I also suspect that professors self-censor, and that students do this as well - not just conservatives, but moderates and liberals. I brought up Bret Weinstein for a reason - liberal professors giving conservative students bad grades simply to punish politics they don't like would be reprehensible, but I don't think this is the elephant in the room.
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  > My understanding is that college administrators tend to run more left wing than college professors, and they may contribute more to the campus climate than professors do... We have 15% women in STEM, and we're told that it's because of residues of the oppressive patriarchy. Well, we have less than 15% conservatives among the faculty of social science departments, and that's because... ?
  - tdb7893 7y ago
    Gender and political ideology are very different. They're the same in that they are generally social constructs but the reasons people align with one or the other and how society views them isn't the same.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      I don't think AnimalMuppet is saying they're the same, but that, if we were half as motivated at finding reasons why conservatives feel discouraged from some academic fields, as we are for why women are, we'd come up with something. Especially since the left:right ratios used to be more even [1] (please excuse the source), so it doesn't look like conservatives are intrinsically against academic careers. While as gender equality increases, STEM fields get more gender-imbalanced [2]. [1] https://www.dailywire.com/news/30222/how-politically-biased-are-universities-new-study-james-barrett https://www.dailywire.com/news/30222/how-politically-biased-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
      - tdb7893 7y ago
        I'm still confused what the point was bringing gender into it. If he's not saying they are the same they seem orthogonal to me.
        deogeo 7y ago
        I think to highlight that the standard to show that no discrimination is happening is much lower for political orientation, than for gender.
jressey 7y ago
> Students opposed to legalized abortion, for example, enter college with narrowly higher GPAs than pro-choice students, but lose most of that advantage over four years. Is this a sign that professors are discriminating against right-wing students? Probably not, according to the study: The authors argue that high school may play more to the strengths of conservative students, who often prefer a straightforward, right-or-wrong assessment style. Liberal students, the authors conjecture, fare better in the qualitative work prioritized in higher education, especially in the humanities. This sums it up. Conservative thinkers don't do well with nuance, in fact that's probably why they chose conservatism.
- dang 7y ago
  Please do not take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. That's exactly what we don't want here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  Speaking of people who don't do well with nuance...
martin1b 7y ago
Maybe not grades. However, I've seen and heard from others of their professors routinely berating conservatives of their beliefs in front of the class.
- throwawaycert 7y ago
  If you can’t defend your views to a person in a position of authority, you are not cut out for higher education.
  - bdcravens 7y ago
    When I was in college, I took an English class with a professor that had very strong ideology; our readings reflected that. In our writings on what we read, getting an A was easy: "toe the party line". Once I had a A for the semester pretty much locked down, I took the opposite position in my final paper. C. Even when you can defend your perspective, when the position of authority wields power, you're disincentivized by the system.
    - throwawaycert 7y ago
      Maybe your position was wrong. I know, hard to believe that you’re not some poor persecuted victim and might have just made a mistake. This isn’t primary school.
      - bdcravens 7y ago
        Maybe. Or maybe my previous positions were wrong but I just knew how to play the professor like a fiddle (which higher education incentivizes), and then went off-key intentionally just to see what would happen. Never know.
        throwawaycert 7y ago
        Well, the study just published by a lifelong Republican tells you being wrong is more likely.
mighty_bander 7y ago
I'm prepared to believe that unconscious bias or systemic discrimination is preferentially benefiting liberal students. What alarms me about this idea, and the related one of group privilege, is not that they are necessarily wrong (they quite possibly aren't), but that once you've convinced somebody that they are subject to being unfair in a way that is invisible to them, it's not hard to pull them around by the nose in whatever direction you like. For that reason, if there's some activity or structure that discriminates against someone who is acting in good faith, it should be addressed specifically. In other words, it should be possible to clearly explain what a problem is and how it functions, rather than tossing around vague accusations of unfairness. By doing so, everybody benefits, and everybody has a fair chance to be heard.
istorical 7y ago
Study results demonstrated that the grades after 4 years for conservative students were not lower than for liberal students. There is a material difference between proving the former and proving that conservative students aren't discriminated against for espousing conservative ideas. Their data did not capture whether these conservative students kept their ideas to themselves and adopted the socially acceptable positions and beliefs they would assume their professors were seeking in order to get the grades. Why rock the boat when a college degree is an economic instrument and not some kind of political debate? "Over the phone, Woessner stresses that, in the end, he and his co-authors had 'to engage in speculation, trying to map our possible explanation ranging from discrimination to skills to interests. [Conservative students] may be not as engaged' when it comes to the humanities, whereas 'liberal students are much less happy with their math classes.'" Nonetheless interesting study, but headline writers once again drawing conclusions beyond the scope of a study. Yay social science journalism. We'll all continue on agreeing with headlines that conform to our echo chambers and dismissing out of hand those that do not, regardless of what the actual study truly demonstrated. Let's just infer explanations that makes sense to us and interpret our findings the way that suits our agenda.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- thatoneuser 7y ago
  "Let's just infer explanations that makes sense to us and interpret our findings the way that suits our agenda." Hah, this very much seems to be the original problem that leads to universities leaning only one direction. I wouldn't say it's a hard 'only leaning against conservative thought', as I've seen academic bias go a lot of directions. But I had many experiences where a prof or curriculum was clearly saying they were right because of their perspective and they wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe this is the product of a world with an abundance of information. You can find evidence to support basically anything (ie fake moon landing.) If you aren't willing to deliberately go outside your knowledge bubble and tackle challenging counter ideas, you're inevitably going to end up with false beliefs.

32 points by lnguyen 7y ago

Pacific Standard's headline is flat wrong: "when controlling for SAT scores and demographics, differences between liberal and conservative students are modest. For example, holding all else constant, the most liberal student would enjoy a 0.16 point advantage over the most conservative student on a 7 point scale. Given our large sample size, this difference is statistically significant." (page 11 of the actual paper) Modest. And statistically significant.

geebee 7y ago

I'm actually not terribly surprised to hear this. Bret Weinstein may have been (and continue to be) a lifelong liberal, but from what I know about him, I wouldn't expect him or professors like him to discriminate against conservative students. Nor would I expect Nicolas Christakis to discriminate against conservatives, I don't know him other than by what I've seen and heard on the media, but this would seem very out of character. Yes, professors lean left, but these are still, by and large, people who devoted their lives to scholarly pursuits, and often show a very deep and principled adherence to the pursuit of truth, where data and analysis takes you. Professors have long been further to the left of mainstream society and their students, but until very recently, conservatives and republicans, in polls, have viewed universities as having a very positive effect on society. The collapse and political divide is recent. It is driven, to an extent, by a effort to associate liberal professors with the very worst attributes of "cancel" culture. Unfortunately, while I continue to feel positively about universities, I can no longer agree that this narrative is entirely fabricated, either. My understanding is that college administrators tend to run more left wing than college professors, and they may contribute more to the campus climate than professors do - their ranks have swelled considerably in recent years. I also suspect that professors self-censor, and that students do this as well - not just conservatives, but moderates and liberals. I brought up Bret Weinstein for a reason - liberal professors giving conservative students bad grades simply to punish politics they don't like would be reprehensible, but I don't think this is the elephant in the room.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago
> My understanding is that college administrators tend to run more left wing than college professors, and they may contribute more to the campus climate than professors do... We have 15% women in STEM, and we're told that it's because of residues of the oppressive patriarchy. Well, we have less than 15% conservatives among the faculty of social science departments, and that's because... ?
- tdb7893 7y ago
  Gender and political ideology are very different. They're the same in that they are generally social constructs but the reasons people align with one or the other and how society views them isn't the same.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    I don't think AnimalMuppet is saying they're the same, but that, if we were half as motivated at finding reasons why conservatives feel discouraged from some academic fields, as we are for why women are, we'd come up with something. Especially since the left:right ratios used to be more even [1] (please excuse the source), so it doesn't look like conservatives are intrinsically against academic careers. While as gender equality increases, STEM fields get more gender-imbalanced [2]. [1] https://www.dailywire.com/news/30222/how-politically-biased-are-universities-new-study-james-barrett https://www.dailywire.com/news/30222/how-politically-biased-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox
    - tdb7893 7y ago
      I'm still confused what the point was bringing gender into it. If he's not saying they are the same they seem orthogonal to me.
      - deogeo 7y ago
        I think to highlight that the standard to show that no discrimination is happening is much lower for political orientation, than for gender.

jressey 7y ago

> Students opposed to legalized abortion, for example, enter college with narrowly higher GPAs than pro-choice students, but lose most of that advantage over four years. Is this a sign that professors are discriminating against right-wing students? Probably not, according to the study: The authors argue that high school may play more to the strengths of conservative students, who often prefer a straightforward, right-or-wrong assessment style. Liberal students, the authors conjecture, fare better in the qualitative work prioritized in higher education, especially in the humanities. This sums it up. Conservative thinkers don't do well with nuance, in fact that's probably why they chose conservatism.

dang 7y ago
Please do not take HN threads further into ideological flamewar. That's exactly what we don't want here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
Speaking of people who don't do well with nuance...

martin1b 7y ago

Maybe not grades. However, I've seen and heard from others of their professors routinely berating conservatives of their beliefs in front of the class.

throwawaycert 7y ago
If you can’t defend your views to a person in a position of authority, you are not cut out for higher education.
- bdcravens 7y ago
  When I was in college, I took an English class with a professor that had very strong ideology; our readings reflected that. In our writings on what we read, getting an A was easy: "toe the party line". Once I had a A for the semester pretty much locked down, I took the opposite position in my final paper. C. Even when you can defend your perspective, when the position of authority wields power, you're disincentivized by the system.
  - throwawaycert 7y ago
    Maybe your position was wrong. I know, hard to believe that you’re not some poor persecuted victim and might have just made a mistake. This isn’t primary school.
    - bdcravens 7y ago
      Maybe. Or maybe my previous positions were wrong but I just knew how to play the professor like a fiddle (which higher education incentivizes), and then went off-key intentionally just to see what would happen. Never know.
      - throwawaycert 7y ago
        Well, the study just published by a lifelong Republican tells you being wrong is more likely.

mighty_bander 7y ago

I'm prepared to believe that unconscious bias or systemic discrimination is preferentially benefiting liberal students. What alarms me about this idea, and the related one of group privilege, is not that they are necessarily wrong (they quite possibly aren't), but that once you've convinced somebody that they are subject to being unfair in a way that is invisible to them, it's not hard to pull them around by the nose in whatever direction you like. For that reason, if there's some activity or structure that discriminates against someone who is acting in good faith, it should be addressed specifically. In other words, it should be possible to clearly explain what a problem is and how it functions, rather than tossing around vague accusations of unfairness. By doing so, everybody benefits, and everybody has a fair chance to be heard.

istorical 7y ago

Study results demonstrated that the grades after 4 years for conservative students were not lower than for liberal students. There is a material difference between proving the former and proving that conservative students aren't discriminated against for espousing conservative ideas. Their data did not capture whether these conservative students kept their ideas to themselves and adopted the socially acceptable positions and beliefs they would assume their professors were seeking in order to get the grades. Why rock the boat when a college degree is an economic instrument and not some kind of political debate? "Over the phone, Woessner stresses that, in the end, he and his co-authors had 'to engage in speculation, trying to map our possible explanation ranging from discrimination to skills to interests. [Conservative students] may be not as engaged' when it comes to the humanities, whereas 'liberal students are much less happy with their math classes.'" Nonetheless interesting study, but headline writers once again drawing conclusions beyond the scope of a study. Yay social science journalism. We'll all continue on agreeing with headlines that conform to our echo chambers and dismissing out of hand those that do not, regardless of what the actual study truly demonstrated. Let's just infer explanations that makes sense to us and interpret our findings the way that suits our agenda.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
thatoneuser 7y ago
"Let's just infer explanations that makes sense to us and interpret our findings the way that suits our agenda." Hah, this very much seems to be the original problem that leads to universities leaning only one direction. I wouldn't say it's a hard 'only leaning against conservative thought', as I've seen academic bias go a lot of directions. But I had many experiences where a prof or curriculum was clearly saying they were right because of their perspective and they wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe this is the product of a world with an abundance of information. You can find evidence to support basically anything (ie fake moon landing.) If you aren't willing to deliberately go outside your knowledge bubble and tackle challenging counter ideas, you're inevitably going to end up with false beliefs.