6 ms·

The S400s you're referrint to are the ones that Turkey just bought from Russia (and which caused all the mess with Trump not being happy about it), right?

SEJeff 7y ago
It doesn't have a thing to do with Trump being unhappy, it is the Pentagon that is hopping mad. It will give the Russians access to S400 telemetry of F22 and F35 planes, something we've been very coy in giving them a chance to get. It lets them figure out how to use their radars against any nation with F22 / F35 planes.
- SpaceRaccoon 7y ago
  That's the official Pentagon line, but it's not it. What are they saying, the S-400 are backdoored with a network connection to Russia? And Russia already has S-400s in Syria, with Israel and the US operating F-35s in the region... The real reason is the US doesn't want to set the precedent for NATO countries buying weapons outside of NATO, and you can be sure the military industrial complex has a huge hand in that.
  - joey_bob 7y ago
    Well the concern has more to do with the purchasing of S400 coming with Russian technical advisors for the system, who you might say are backdoored with a network connection to Russia.
- metta2uall 7y ago
  Can't Russia already fairly easily eavesdrop on F22s and F35s during military exercises from ships or by just renting a room / camping van somewhere nearby?
- bitL 7y ago
  Didn't they already acquire them in Syria/Iraq? I bet Russians brought their latest radar tech with them when F22s were operating in the area, and now there is Israel with F35. They might be just observing and would be stupid to talk about it anyway and I doubt Turkey will get the same S400s, likely a dumbed-down export version. It's more like Turkey can't have all their tech obliterated instantly if they switched sides and US manufacturers will miss some projected profit.
  - ceejayoz 7y ago
    There's likely a big difference between "we tested them out in an active combat zone against uncooperative planes" and "we tested them out in controlled circumstances with friendly subjects", though.
  - greedo 7y ago
    Depends on if the F-22 was operating in full stealth mode. Also depends on how their (the F-22's) radar was employed, what ECCM was used, etc etc. I doubt the USAF showed the Russians the full monty...
    - bitL 7y ago
      Not sure about F-22; however recently Israel attacked some targets in Iraq using F-35s in stealth mode, and those were likely monitored by Russians in Syria (or I would be very surprised if they weren't...)
  - qserasera 7y ago
    Yes Russia has been using Syria as a testing ground for detection of a variety of airplanes that Israel uses. If Turkey has the S400 and F35s it means they will have much much much more data for detection. Turkey would also have a platform for offense and defense in a bid for regional military supremacy which they almost have.
    - joyjoyjoy 7y ago
      It is the word of the Russians against that of the Americans. What if it turns out that the S400 can detect the F35 easily?
- zepearl 7y ago
  > It will give the Russians access to S400 telemetry of F22 and F35 planes... Thx a lot - I now think that I understand the issue => it's once more a reminder for myself that often nothing is as simple as it is presented. Unluckily none of the news I read/watched about it mentioned this and I did not think about it.
  - blackflame7000 7y ago
    Of course it's not. The news of today is facile, designed for ratings and clicks not actual analysis. Trump=bad is much easier than explaining about the F35 radar signatures to the layman.
    - kirrent 7y ago
      Being cynical is easy, but there is plenty of fairly high quality reporting on this issue in the mainstream media. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-trump/trump-says-not-fair-that-us-cant-sell-f-35s-to-turkey-idUSKCN1UB27J https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-trump/trump-sa... - “Turkish operation of the two systems together — and more specifically, when it is in stealth mode — would allow the S-400 to acquire intimate knowledge of the F-35’s radar signature,” Karako wrote. “Such insights would almost immediately find (their) way back to Russia, and the capability of F-35s around the world could thereby be degraded.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/world/europe/us-turkey-russia-missiles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/world/europe/us-turkey-ru... - Ellen M. Lord, the Defense Department’s under secretary for acquisition and sustainment, said the S-400 and its radar systems could compromise the F-35’s stealth capabilities and jeopardize the fighter jet’s long-term security. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/trump-turkey-s400-sales/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/trump-turkey-s40... - 'The S-400 poses a real threat to US national security, analysts said. The Russian system is built to defeat US stealth technology, leading officials in Washington to worry that if Turkey took delivery of F35s, the Russian system could be used to collect valuable information about the fifth-generation fighter jet.'
      - blackflame7000 7y ago

SEJeff 7y ago

It doesn't have a thing to do with Trump being unhappy, it is the Pentagon that is hopping mad. It will give the Russians access to S400 telemetry of F22 and F35 planes, something we've been very coy in giving them a chance to get. It lets them figure out how to use their radars against any nation with F22 / F35 planes.

SpaceRaccoon 7y ago
That's the official Pentagon line, but it's not it. What are they saying, the S-400 are backdoored with a network connection to Russia? And Russia already has S-400s in Syria, with Israel and the US operating F-35s in the region... The real reason is the US doesn't want to set the precedent for NATO countries buying weapons outside of NATO, and you can be sure the military industrial complex has a huge hand in that.
- joey_bob 7y ago
  Well the concern has more to do with the purchasing of S400 coming with Russian technical advisors for the system, who you might say are backdoored with a network connection to Russia.
metta2uall 7y ago
Can't Russia already fairly easily eavesdrop on F22s and F35s during military exercises from ships or by just renting a room / camping van somewhere nearby?
bitL 7y ago
Didn't they already acquire them in Syria/Iraq? I bet Russians brought their latest radar tech with them when F22s were operating in the area, and now there is Israel with F35. They might be just observing and would be stupid to talk about it anyway and I doubt Turkey will get the same S400s, likely a dumbed-down export version. It's more like Turkey can't have all their tech obliterated instantly if they switched sides and US manufacturers will miss some projected profit.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  There's likely a big difference between "we tested them out in an active combat zone against uncooperative planes" and "we tested them out in controlled circumstances with friendly subjects", though.
- greedo 7y ago
  Depends on if the F-22 was operating in full stealth mode. Also depends on how their (the F-22's) radar was employed, what ECCM was used, etc etc. I doubt the USAF showed the Russians the full monty...
  - bitL 7y ago
    Not sure about F-22; however recently Israel attacked some targets in Iraq using F-35s in stealth mode, and those were likely monitored by Russians in Syria (or I would be very surprised if they weren't...)
- qserasera 7y ago
  Yes Russia has been using Syria as a testing ground for detection of a variety of airplanes that Israel uses. If Turkey has the S400 and F35s it means they will have much much much more data for detection. Turkey would also have a platform for offense and defense in a bid for regional military supremacy which they almost have.
  - joyjoyjoy 7y ago
    It is the word of the Russians against that of the Americans. What if it turns out that the S400 can detect the F35 easily?
zepearl 7y ago
> It will give the Russians access to S400 telemetry of F22 and F35 planes... Thx a lot - I now think that I understand the issue => it's once more a reminder for myself that often nothing is as simple as it is presented. Unluckily none of the news I read/watched about it mentioned this and I did not think about it.
- blackflame7000 7y ago
  Of course it's not. The news of today is facile, designed for ratings and clicks not actual analysis. Trump=bad is much easier than explaining about the F35 radar signatures to the layman.
  - kirrent 7y ago
    Being cynical is easy, but there is plenty of fairly high quality reporting on this issue in the mainstream media. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-trump/trump-says-not-fair-that-us-cant-sell-f-35s-to-turkey-idUSKCN1UB27J https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-turkey-trump/trump-sa... - “Turkish operation of the two systems together — and more specifically, when it is in stealth mode — would allow the S-400 to acquire intimate knowledge of the F-35’s radar signature,” Karako wrote. “Such insights would almost immediately find (their) way back to Russia, and the capability of F-35s around the world could thereby be degraded.” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/world/europe/us-turkey-russia-missiles.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/17/world/europe/us-turkey-ru... - Ellen M. Lord, the Defense Department’s under secretary for acquisition and sustainment, said the S-400 and its radar systems could compromise the F-35’s stealth capabilities and jeopardize the fighter jet’s long-term security. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/trump-turkey-s400-sales/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/16/politics/trump-turkey-s40... - 'The S-400 poses a real threat to US national security, analysts said. The Russian system is built to defeat US stealth technology, leading officials in Washington to worry that if Turkey took delivery of F35s, the Russian system could be used to collect valuable information about the fifth-generation fighter jet.'
    - blackflame7000 7y ago