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>#1) [...] it took /a lot/ of applications [...] I don’t have the actual numbers ..ok? >#2) Tech interviews are just stupid broken [...] ..ok? >I was /never

>#1) [...] it took /a lot/ of applications [...] I don’t have the actual numbers ..ok? >#2) Tech interviews are just stupid broken [...] ..ok? >I was /never/ offered feedback. Not once! [...] This sucks. You're talking senior positions. A senior, just going by semantics, should be very aware of his standing, and what recruiters want to see for the specific position he wants to be his job. If you have questions, ask the recruiter, that's appreciated. Why should they spend money on the time it takes? For the luls? When you don't even ask for it? You tried senior and you didn't make it. Either you didn't know about important criteria, or you didn't meet them, in both cases you're just not there yet. >#4) Recruiters are absolutely useless, unless they are good, and then they are gold. Not much to be said here, general recruiter model seems to be throw all your jobs at every applicant, see if any bite. Throw all your applicants at any job, see if it anyone gets hired. Keep commissions if it works. the entire paragraph is hot air >#5) Not publishing salary information sucks. Asking someone what they expect to make without publishing salary information double sucks. If you don't know your value, you're not worth the value they'd be willing to pay if you did. It's not rocket science... >#6) Weed out the jerks early [...] CTO wrote back and said verbatim, “I honestly wouldn’t have written you back, because the code you sent over is terrible. But my team liked some other things about your resume so I want to give you a second chance to impress me. Can you send over some different code?” [...] And he wrote back and said basically oh I’m sorry, I thought I was clear, I have 50 resumes on my desk from the best CS schools in the country, you went to a boot camp, you /are/ lucky if I decide to interview you. And I was like, no thanks! Can you imagine for working for that guy if that’s how he treats candidates? guy was honest with you, gave you feedback you did't want to hear (heh, #4) and made sure that you would't waste even more of his time (due to complete lack of context-awareness with respect to the position and concurrence), while still giving you a chance, because some people in his team were interested. bruh. this is the best imaginable case. get a grip

Bahamut 7y ago
I too wanted to comment on some of the points, as this just isn't a well written article and reads more like the rants of someone who isn't ready emotionally, letting the frustrations boil over into not evaluating the scenarios properly.
- hans1729 7y ago
  Emotional is the right word, yeah. At first I thought "ah, guess you gotta write a medium-article when you get a job these days, good for the resume eh", but this lad really got me more sugar: >#8) Last one — always trust your intuition and get in there and really talk to people. [...] The job I took — on paper not nec a match for me and glassdoor reviews were also not encouraging to me. But every time I talked to the engineering manager I was like hmmm, I kinda feel like this is a good fit for me. I’m not sure why yet, but my spidey senses say lots of green flags. "Ok, so I have no numbers on applications, but its 20+. I have very high criteria, I'm selective asf. No one talks back to me, they're all super rude. But now I've got a job. Ok, it doesn't meet my criteria, and yeah, bad rep on glassdor, but my spidey senses say we're cool. #alwaysfollowyourintuition" this should become a copypasta
littlecranky67 7y ago
Agreed. If you read the article carefully, the author holds no degree in CS but rather went to a bootcamp. I don't know how much this qualifies you for a senior position, depends a lot on experience.
- undecisive 7y ago
  It looks like bootcamps started getting popular around 2012. Assuming this guy has been in industry for the past 6 years, that's probably enough experience to start considering Senior level coder roles in the current climate.
  - throwresumeaway 7y ago
    Looks like this is his resume http://estiens.github.io http://estiens.github.io, doesn't look like a senior "coder" to me.
    - llamataboot 7y ago
      Nah, if you're gonna out me, at least use a current resume (not including current job): https://ericstiens.dev/resume.html https://ericstiens.dev/resume.html
      - undecisive 7y ago
        Not sure this throwaway HN account is responsible for your obnoxious un-fan-mail; though I'd be reasonably interested to hear if any of them mentioned links in HN comments specifically. Alas, writing a blog post about how nobody will hire you and give interview feedback is a sure-fire way to get an abundance of unwanted interview critique for an interview you never did. If I ever find myself with an over-abundance of faith in humanity, I might just do this with a fake name, email and CV and see what gems of human garbage get thrown at me. On the upside, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that #3, #4 and #5 are absolutely on the money, and all boil down to ease (or, depending on your bias, laziness). It's not easy telling someone their faults - unless it's in an anonymous email to a random stranger on the internet, clearly - and it's far easier for a recruiter to throw cvs / job opportunities everywhere and see what sticks, than to actually be careful and methodical. You mentioned it's a lot like dating; essentially, many recruiters are the equivalent of those dating gurus who show you how to become an alpha and promote a mixture of negging and other horrible practices; it works based on percentages, not based on content. If 1% of potential partners have low enough self esteem, and you attack 1000 people, you're almost guaranteed to find someone. Lose your soul, find a bed-buddy. To some people, that seems like a good tradeoff. If you spam enough people about your opportunity - often at no cost to yourself - you're bound to get one hit, often at significant profit. I'm afraid this is never going to change; hedging a critical message so that it doesn't hurt someone's feelings is hard, especially when there is no incentive; letting someone know your budget for their role and missing out on an unreasonable bargain is hard, especially when there is no incentive; and putting real work into recruitment when email spam is just soooo easy is hard, no incentive. Our only option is to be the change. I'm lucky that I work for a company that values giving recruitment feedback; when people I know well broadcast job opportunities I encourage them to publish a ballpark salary; and when I find a good recruiter I broadcast them far and wide and review them positively on LinkedIn. It might not change the world, but it might help a few.
LanceH 7y ago
I think #4 is spot on, really.
- hans1729 7y ago
  But it's an opinion at best. Unless it's your profession to evaluate the entire process, you're not in a position to claim it as a fact, thus it's hot air. Of course there is a difference between really great and average recruiters, and of course the outreach is almost spam. That doesn't mean they're useless though, think of them like fishnets dragged around, except the fish can decide to leave
  - deathanatos 7y ago
    > But it's an opinion at best. Oh, I have enough recruiter emails to write a blog post on how it's objectively bad. Any attempt to hire someone is going to need to cover at least a few things: What am I doing? Who am I doing it for? (and maybe, what do they do?, since SWE is usually combined w/ some other industry) How am I being compensated for that work? Now, I "get" that many companies seem to like to withhold compensation information until the last possible moment so that we can try to negotiate a candidate as close to 0 as possible, so I don't really expect to get all of that information in the first brush. But half time time, I get none of it, or nearly none of it. E.g., > Your profile seems to be impressive for a [senior backend SWE] with our direct client in [location I am not interested in, which is mention in the LinkedIn profile the recruiter is coming from], If interested, please do respond with your contact details. That's the whole email. We got like… half a role. Okay, Senior SWE, backend, but that's basically my résumé. What does the company do? What industry are they in? What is the team working on? What might I be working on? Alas, it's not even geographically relevant, despite LinkedIn having that information in a structured format, so, it's not relevant. Lots of talk about unicorns and VC funding though.
    - LanceH 7y ago
      The funny thing about holding back compensation until the last minute is that we're not negotiating until they've decided they want me. They're exhausted from the search, have found someone they want (and I know it), and we start negotiating.
human20190310 7y ago
> If you don't know your value, you're not worth the value they'd be willing to pay if you did. I disagree with this. Knowing your value requires access to information. For many people, this information is obtained informally, through connections. But this puts people without connections, who were at a disadvantage anyway, at a further disadvantage.
- hans1729 7y ago
  I can't really disagree with this, but am left in conflict: Information should be free, but shouldn't companies be free to a) negotiate in their own best interested b) use NDAs?
  - diN0bot 7y ago
    why should they? it all depends on the world you want to live in and who gets to be empowered.
  - eropple 7y ago
    Almost every company that hires software developers are corporations or another limited-liability structure, such as an LLC. These entities exist at the sufferance of the society that grants that charter. They have no natural rights of any kind and they are granted the opportunity to exist so long as they provide benefits to the society granting that charter. So you're asking what is, to me, the wrong question. To me, a more valuable question to community, society, and humanity is "why are we not putting them in a hammerlock and demanding decency?". Like--is there economic benefit to hiding this stuff from workers? Or is there greater economic benefit to at least some significant level of transparency with applicants and with workers after they're hired? My guess is that that transparency is of significant social, as well as economic, value.
  - mcv 7y ago
    > b) use NDAs? Not for information that shouldn't be secret. You use NDAs for trade secrets, not for mere salary information.
- WorldMaker 7y ago

Bahamut 7y ago

I too wanted to comment on some of the points, as this just isn't a well written article and reads more like the rants of someone who isn't ready emotionally, letting the frustrations boil over into not evaluating the scenarios properly.

hans1729 7y ago
Emotional is the right word, yeah. At first I thought "ah, guess you gotta write a medium-article when you get a job these days, good for the resume eh", but this lad really got me more sugar: >#8) Last one — always trust your intuition and get in there and really talk to people. [...] The job I took — on paper not nec a match for me and glassdoor reviews were also not encouraging to me. But every time I talked to the engineering manager I was like hmmm, I kinda feel like this is a good fit for me. I’m not sure why yet, but my spidey senses say lots of green flags. "Ok, so I have no numbers on applications, but its 20+. I have very high criteria, I'm selective asf. No one talks back to me, they're all super rude. But now I've got a job. Ok, it doesn't meet my criteria, and yeah, bad rep on glassdor, but my spidey senses say we're cool. #alwaysfollowyourintuition" this should become a copypasta

littlecranky67 7y ago

Agreed. If you read the article carefully, the author holds no degree in CS but rather went to a bootcamp. I don't know how much this qualifies you for a senior position, depends a lot on experience.

undecisive 7y ago
It looks like bootcamps started getting popular around 2012. Assuming this guy has been in industry for the past 6 years, that's probably enough experience to start considering Senior level coder roles in the current climate.
- throwresumeaway 7y ago
  Looks like this is his resume http://estiens.github.io http://estiens.github.io, doesn't look like a senior "coder" to me.
  - llamataboot 7y ago
    Nah, if you're gonna out me, at least use a current resume (not including current job): https://ericstiens.dev/resume.html https://ericstiens.dev/resume.html
    - undecisive 7y ago
      Not sure this throwaway HN account is responsible for your obnoxious un-fan-mail; though I'd be reasonably interested to hear if any of them mentioned links in HN comments specifically. Alas, writing a blog post about how nobody will hire you and give interview feedback is a sure-fire way to get an abundance of unwanted interview critique for an interview you never did. If I ever find myself with an over-abundance of faith in humanity, I might just do this with a fake name, email and CV and see what gems of human garbage get thrown at me. On the upside, I'd like to take this opportunity to say that #3, #4 and #5 are absolutely on the money, and all boil down to ease (or, depending on your bias, laziness). It's not easy telling someone their faults - unless it's in an anonymous email to a random stranger on the internet, clearly - and it's far easier for a recruiter to throw cvs / job opportunities everywhere and see what sticks, than to actually be careful and methodical. You mentioned it's a lot like dating; essentially, many recruiters are the equivalent of those dating gurus who show you how to become an alpha and promote a mixture of negging and other horrible practices; it works based on percentages, not based on content. If 1% of potential partners have low enough self esteem, and you attack 1000 people, you're almost guaranteed to find someone. Lose your soul, find a bed-buddy. To some people, that seems like a good tradeoff. If you spam enough people about your opportunity - often at no cost to yourself - you're bound to get one hit, often at significant profit. I'm afraid this is never going to change; hedging a critical message so that it doesn't hurt someone's feelings is hard, especially when there is no incentive; letting someone know your budget for their role and missing out on an unreasonable bargain is hard, especially when there is no incentive; and putting real work into recruitment when email spam is just soooo easy is hard, no incentive. Our only option is to be the change. I'm lucky that I work for a company that values giving recruitment feedback; when people I know well broadcast job opportunities I encourage them to publish a ballpark salary; and when I find a good recruiter I broadcast them far and wide and review them positively on LinkedIn. It might not change the world, but it might help a few.

LanceH 7y ago

I think #4 is spot on, really.

hans1729 7y ago
But it's an opinion at best. Unless it's your profession to evaluate the entire process, you're not in a position to claim it as a fact, thus it's hot air. Of course there is a difference between really great and average recruiters, and of course the outreach is almost spam. That doesn't mean they're useless though, think of them like fishnets dragged around, except the fish can decide to leave
- deathanatos 7y ago
  > But it's an opinion at best. Oh, I have enough recruiter emails to write a blog post on how it's objectively bad. Any attempt to hire someone is going to need to cover at least a few things: What am I doing? Who am I doing it for? (and maybe, what do they do?, since SWE is usually combined w/ some other industry) How am I being compensated for that work? Now, I "get" that many companies seem to like to withhold compensation information until the last possible moment so that we can try to negotiate a candidate as close to 0 as possible, so I don't really expect to get all of that information in the first brush. But half time time, I get none of it, or nearly none of it. E.g., > Your profile seems to be impressive for a [senior backend SWE] with our direct client in [location I am not interested in, which is mention in the LinkedIn profile the recruiter is coming from], If interested, please do respond with your contact details. That's the whole email. We got like… half a role. Okay, Senior SWE, backend, but that's basically my résumé. What does the company do? What industry are they in? What is the team working on? What might I be working on? Alas, it's not even geographically relevant, despite LinkedIn having that information in a structured format, so, it's not relevant. Lots of talk about unicorns and VC funding though.
  - LanceH 7y ago
    The funny thing about holding back compensation until the last minute is that we're not negotiating until they've decided they want me. They're exhausted from the search, have found someone they want (and I know it), and we start negotiating.

human20190310 7y ago

> If you don't know your value, you're not worth the value they'd be willing to pay if you did. I disagree with this. Knowing your value requires access to information. For many people, this information is obtained informally, through connections. But this puts people without connections, who were at a disadvantage anyway, at a further disadvantage.

hans1729 7y ago
I can't really disagree with this, but am left in conflict: Information should be free, but shouldn't companies be free to a) negotiate in their own best interested b) use NDAs?
- diN0bot 7y ago
  why should they? it all depends on the world you want to live in and who gets to be empowered.
- eropple 7y ago
  Almost every company that hires software developers are corporations or another limited-liability structure, such as an LLC. These entities exist at the sufferance of the society that grants that charter. They have no natural rights of any kind and they are granted the opportunity to exist so long as they provide benefits to the society granting that charter. So you're asking what is, to me, the wrong question. To me, a more valuable question to community, society, and humanity is "why are we not putting them in a hammerlock and demanding decency?". Like--is there economic benefit to hiding this stuff from workers? Or is there greater economic benefit to at least some significant level of transparency with applicants and with workers after they're hired? My guess is that that transparency is of significant social, as well as economic, value.
- mcv 7y ago
  > b) use NDAs? Not for information that shouldn't be secret. You use NDAs for trade secrets, not for mere salary information.
WorldMaker 7y ago