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Can't reply to your post below, but - net migration to the UK is running at hundreds of thousands per year, which is apparently causing all kinds of tensions wi

Can't reply to your post below, but - net migration to the UK is running at hundreds of thousands per year, which is apparently causing all kinds of tensions with public services and society. You can't just hand wave that away by saying that the public are stupid for believing lies in the papers, and I would say this betrays on your part a contempt for your countrymen, and what's more I would say is inaccurate when the evidence of migration is glaringly obvious in pretty much any town of a reasonable size. No one needs to read the papers to know the country is changing before our eyes. And perhaps that's ok - if people are offered the choice and vote for it. In a democracy the populace should be offered a choice and have their choice respected. If you don't believe that, you believe in tyranny.

pjc50 7y ago
> this betrays on your part a contempt for your countrymen A lot of people would deny this, but I'm at the stage where I am openly contemptuous of a lot of my countrymen for their aggressive refusal to listen to reason and their vindictive pursuit of policies which have harmed a lot of my friends. I count both EU and non-EU immigrants among my colleagues. Are you saying I should choose loyalty to random idiots I've never met but happen to share a birthplace with over people I actually work with and like? > evidence of migration is glaringly obvious People's immigration status is not written on their foreheads. What you mean is that you can see nonwhite or hear non-English-speaking people. > In a democracy the populace should be offered a choice and have their choice respected. If you don't believe that, you believe in tyranny. Sounds great, but what if the choice is meaningless, impossible, or infringes the rights of others? We can't "respect the choice" to, say, abolish rain on days when cricket is being played. And we should not respect the choice to take away the rights of others, such as the deportation and de-citizenship of British nationals who were born in Britain but happen to be of non-white ancestry.
- growlist 7y ago
  > I am openly contemptuous of a lot of my countrymen for their aggressive refusal to listen to reason and their vindictive pursuit of policies which have harmed a lot of my friends Appreciate your honesty, but you live in a society and other people have strong opinions also. Your opinion doesn't trump theirs, no matter how heartfelt it is or righteous you might feel > People's immigration status is not written on their foreheads. What you mean is that you can see nonwhite or hear non-English-speaking people. Yes? And? So what? I'm not allowed to believe the evidence of my own eyes now else I'm racist? > Sounds great, but what if the choice is meaningless, impossible, or infringes the rights of others? We can't "respect the choice" to, say, abolish rain on days when cricket is being played. And we should not respect the choice to take away the rights of others, such as the deportation and de-citizenship of British nationals who were born in Britain but happen to be of non-white ancestry. Immigration could be drastically reduced if there were the political will, but all major parties are fiercely pro-immigration. And you are having a laugh if you are seriously arguing that the drastic change observable is all British nationals. There's no point in us going much further as neither of us will convince the other. Bottom line: voters should be offered a choice, and that choice should be respected no matter how hateful you might think the motives. It's called democracy and it's all we have between us and the Gulags. Efforts to undermine it and free speech should be resisted at all costs.
- deleted 7y ago
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pjc50 7y ago

> this betrays on your part a contempt for your countrymen A lot of people would deny this, but I'm at the stage where I am openly contemptuous of a lot of my countrymen for their aggressive refusal to listen to reason and their vindictive pursuit of policies which have harmed a lot of my friends. I count both EU and non-EU immigrants among my colleagues. Are you saying I should choose loyalty to random idiots I've never met but happen to share a birthplace with over people I actually work with and like? > evidence of migration is glaringly obvious People's immigration status is not written on their foreheads. What you mean is that you can see nonwhite or hear non-English-speaking people. > In a democracy the populace should be offered a choice and have their choice respected. If you don't believe that, you believe in tyranny. Sounds great, but what if the choice is meaningless, impossible, or infringes the rights of others? We can't "respect the choice" to, say, abolish rain on days when cricket is being played. And we should not respect the choice to take away the rights of others, such as the deportation and de-citizenship of British nationals who were born in Britain but happen to be of non-white ancestry.

growlist 7y ago
> I am openly contemptuous of a lot of my countrymen for their aggressive refusal to listen to reason and their vindictive pursuit of policies which have harmed a lot of my friends Appreciate your honesty, but you live in a society and other people have strong opinions also. Your opinion doesn't trump theirs, no matter how heartfelt it is or righteous you might feel > People's immigration status is not written on their foreheads. What you mean is that you can see nonwhite or hear non-English-speaking people. Yes? And? So what? I'm not allowed to believe the evidence of my own eyes now else I'm racist? > Sounds great, but what if the choice is meaningless, impossible, or infringes the rights of others? We can't "respect the choice" to, say, abolish rain on days when cricket is being played. And we should not respect the choice to take away the rights of others, such as the deportation and de-citizenship of British nationals who were born in Britain but happen to be of non-white ancestry. Immigration could be drastically reduced if there were the political will, but all major parties are fiercely pro-immigration. And you are having a laugh if you are seriously arguing that the drastic change observable is all British nationals. There's no point in us going much further as neither of us will convince the other. Bottom line: voters should be offered a choice, and that choice should be respected no matter how hateful you might think the motives. It's called democracy and it's all we have between us and the Gulags. Efforts to undermine it and free speech should be resisted at all costs.
deleted 7y ago
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