6 ms·

100km range fits the commuting needs of 95% of the people in western Europe. In any case, the target demographic is likely not wealthy, so for them, less range

100km range fits the commuting needs of 95% of the people in western Europe. In any case, the target demographic is likely not wealthy, so for them, less range for less money would be ideal. Plus, the smaller the battery the easier it is to fit, meaning less potential problems later on. Particularly important because these cars won't be crash tested.

xiphias2 7y ago
,,100km range fits the commuting needs of 95% of the people in western Europe’’ More like 95% of commuting needs of 95% of the people. As local transport is quite good, vacation is the more important and harder to substitute part of the car need.
- wongarsu 7y ago
  The car isn't going to make a trip to Italy for vacation. On the other hand drive to their vacation a lot less than in the 70s or 80s since flying became much cheaper. Also lots of families have two cars to manage commute, and one of those doesn't really need more range than necessary for the commute.
- adrianN 7y ago
  Vacation is the trivially substitutable part of car needs: Just rent a car.
  - abyssin 7y ago
    I don't understand why this needs to be said, and I agree with you. There's no point owning a car that is more expensive only because if has to face specific conditions one or two days a year. Renting a car seems to be the obvious solution, but there might be two reasons why it doesn't appear to be so for most people. The first one is that in general car drivers don't know how much they pay per day or per kilometer driven. Then renting a car seems to be expensive. The second reason is that cars have an almost religious status in our society. It reminds me of Ath, a city in Belgium that has a yearly event where the people go through the streets wearing huge statues. This tradition can be found in other countries as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantes_y_cabezudos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantes_y_cabezudos. Car culture looks like a big daily procession to honour the values of power, speed, and freedom from physical limitations. No wonder some people can't leave their symbolic attire, and instead want to own it, the way they own their daily clothes.
    - LeonM 7y ago
      It's even worse than that: in countries where caravans are popular (which is most of Europe), most people buy heavy and overpowered cars just to be able to tow their caravan twice a year.
  - TomMarius 7y ago
    In Europe people often buy second hand cars for less than $5k, even less than $2k. Renting is way too expensive, as is this conversion kit.
    - adrianN 7y ago
      Pretty sure people everywhere buy second hand cars, but somehow car makers still sell millions of new cars every month. Surely more people can afford this kind of electric conversion kit than a new electric car.
      - TomMarius 7y ago
        Yeah but I'm pretty sure that most of those here who use cars to go to cities are those with low cost second hand cars. The nice ones are usually sitting parked in garages, used mainly for out of city or whole family trips - public transport is actually being used a lot here, however the current issue is that it doesn't connect out of city areas well, forcing people living out of city to use cars to commute. Most new cars are sold to businesses. I think this does not apply to the US.
  - on_and_off 7y ago
    Or travel by train.. France (and Europe) have a great railway system. You don't necessarily need a car to travel. And if you do, as you mentioned, just rent one.
- de_watcher 7y ago
  Yea, EU vacation is starting to be fine from 200km range if the car supports 40+kWh/h charging. You're tired and need to make a stop just when the car needs a recharge.
  - xiphias2 7y ago
    Probably yes, I live in eastern Europe, and here most chargers are 22kW, but with 40kW I guess it wouldn’t be a problem.
  - magicalhippo 7y ago
    Just did a weeks vacation in Norway, where I live, with my BMW i3 94Ah model. It has a tad over 200km range. The biggest issue was finding an available, working charger. Due to this, we didn't feel safe having less than 50km range when charging. Overall I estimate we spent about 40% of the total stopping time waiting for or finding an available charger. The main leg was a 350km drive we've done several times before, and due to the charging it took us an extra hour or so compared to previous years with our previous ICE car. Interestingly my girlfriend said she actually felt it was shorter, because the trip was broken up by the longish charging stops. We also felt much less exhausted when we arrived. I'm sure charging will get better with time though. Increasing range will help a lot, and more charging stations will be built.
GordonS 7y ago
I don't doubt it's enough range for a lot of people, but seriously doubt it's enough for 95% of people. I also think you effectively need to half the quoted range figure, as there is little guarantee of a charging point at your destination - so it's max 50km/31miles each way. Of course, even if there is a charger at your destination, it's going to take a long time time charge, so may not be convenient in any case.
- maccard 7y ago
  A 30 mile journey in most of Europe isn't the same as a 30 mile journey in the US. There's a saying - Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Europeans think 100 miles is a long way. A 60 mile round trip is probably about the longest daily commute you could manage in many parts of Europe
  - GordonS 7y ago
    > A 60 mile round trip is probably about the longest daily commute you could manage in many parts of Europe I don't understand this? I'm in Scotland, and know multiple people that commute 120 miles (round-trip) in a day; not sure why you think the location in Europe matters.
  - seszett 7y ago
    > A 60 mile round trip is probably about the longest daily commute you could manage in many parts of Europe I think you're quite underestimating distances in Europe. Here in Belgium, it's common enough to commute from West Flanders to Antwerp, a 100km (60 miles) commute one-way. My case is a bit special as I commute from Antwerp to Lille in France (130km or 80 miles) although only one day of week thankfully. 30 miles one-way is the average commuting distance for people who live in Wallonia and work in Brussels, for example[0]. Looking at the stats in France[1], I see that the median commuting distance for the 1.7 million people that commute between two different urban areas is 30 miles, meaning half of those have a commute longer than 60 miles round trip. Such commuting distances are not nearly as uncommon as you seem to think. [0]https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_wwv_2017-2018_nl.pdf https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_... (Dutch) or https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_wwv_2017-2018fr.pdf https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_... (French) [1]https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1280781 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1280781
masklinn 7y ago
> 100km range fits the commuting needs of 95% of the people in western Europe. There's a bunch of problems with this though: * Finding charging spots can be difficult, most workplaces don't provide them, many residential buildings don't either, if you live in the city and park outside just forget about it entirely, finding a spot is already hell; having to waste an hour charging every two days makes the "fit" way worse, even more so when the few charging spots are completely out of your way. * The range figures are usually without A/C or heating, both of which eat significantly into EV range. * It's nice that 100km range fits into people's commuting needs, but there's no provision for non-commuting, how do you go see your parents, or on holidays, or drop by friends a few cities over, or go to your cousin's wedding? My own commute is like 15km, but if I were to get a car (rather than use public transport) I'd get a plug-in hybrid: sure a 100km EV is more than enough for my commute (I even have an electrified parking spot), but a trip to go back to the family is 600km, and that's if I don't go and see cousins or whatever. Even if there were enough charging stations on the way (there aren't) transforming a ~6h trip into 8~10 would not be fine. Hell, with a 100km range I couldn't even round-trip to the nearest ikea on a full charge. So sure, if you've got the money and room (aka a house at least) to own two cars and keep one charging overnight you can get a short-range EV for your commuting. Not sure that's the majority though…
- southerndrift 7y ago
  >How do you go see your parents, or on holidays, or drop by friends a few cities over, or go to your cousin's wedding? Rent a car or go by train/plane.
  - masklinn 7y ago
    So you have to pay for a car and you have to pay for the car not actually working as a car?
    - southerndrift 7y ago
      Yes. Depending on your usage pattern, you are better off buying that cheap low-range car and paying for additional transport when needed.
mikeash 7y ago
Short range could be OK. But their justification for it is just silly. Say that it’s to save money or something!

xiphias2 7y ago

,,100km range fits the commuting needs of 95% of the people in western Europe’’ More like 95% of commuting needs of 95% of the people. As local transport is quite good, vacation is the more important and harder to substitute part of the car need.

wongarsu 7y ago
The car isn't going to make a trip to Italy for vacation. On the other hand drive to their vacation a lot less than in the 70s or 80s since flying became much cheaper. Also lots of families have two cars to manage commute, and one of those doesn't really need more range than necessary for the commute.
adrianN 7y ago
Vacation is the trivially substitutable part of car needs: Just rent a car.
- abyssin 7y ago
  I don't understand why this needs to be said, and I agree with you. There's no point owning a car that is more expensive only because if has to face specific conditions one or two days a year. Renting a car seems to be the obvious solution, but there might be two reasons why it doesn't appear to be so for most people. The first one is that in general car drivers don't know how much they pay per day or per kilometer driven. Then renting a car seems to be expensive. The second reason is that cars have an almost religious status in our society. It reminds me of Ath, a city in Belgium that has a yearly event where the people go through the streets wearing huge statues. This tradition can be found in other countries as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantes_y_cabezudos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigantes_y_cabezudos. Car culture looks like a big daily procession to honour the values of power, speed, and freedom from physical limitations. No wonder some people can't leave their symbolic attire, and instead want to own it, the way they own their daily clothes.
  - LeonM 7y ago
    It's even worse than that: in countries where caravans are popular (which is most of Europe), most people buy heavy and overpowered cars just to be able to tow their caravan twice a year.
- TomMarius 7y ago
  In Europe people often buy second hand cars for less than $5k, even less than $2k. Renting is way too expensive, as is this conversion kit.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    Pretty sure people everywhere buy second hand cars, but somehow car makers still sell millions of new cars every month. Surely more people can afford this kind of electric conversion kit than a new electric car.
    - TomMarius 7y ago
      Yeah but I'm pretty sure that most of those here who use cars to go to cities are those with low cost second hand cars. The nice ones are usually sitting parked in garages, used mainly for out of city or whole family trips - public transport is actually being used a lot here, however the current issue is that it doesn't connect out of city areas well, forcing people living out of city to use cars to commute. Most new cars are sold to businesses. I think this does not apply to the US.
- on_and_off 7y ago
  Or travel by train.. France (and Europe) have a great railway system. You don't necessarily need a car to travel. And if you do, as you mentioned, just rent one.
de_watcher 7y ago
Yea, EU vacation is starting to be fine from 200km range if the car supports 40+kWh/h charging. You're tired and need to make a stop just when the car needs a recharge.
- xiphias2 7y ago
  Probably yes, I live in eastern Europe, and here most chargers are 22kW, but with 40kW I guess it wouldn’t be a problem.
- magicalhippo 7y ago
  Just did a weeks vacation in Norway, where I live, with my BMW i3 94Ah model. It has a tad over 200km range. The biggest issue was finding an available, working charger. Due to this, we didn't feel safe having less than 50km range when charging. Overall I estimate we spent about 40% of the total stopping time waiting for or finding an available charger. The main leg was a 350km drive we've done several times before, and due to the charging it took us an extra hour or so compared to previous years with our previous ICE car. Interestingly my girlfriend said she actually felt it was shorter, because the trip was broken up by the longish charging stops. We also felt much less exhausted when we arrived. I'm sure charging will get better with time though. Increasing range will help a lot, and more charging stations will be built.

GordonS 7y ago

I don't doubt it's enough range for a lot of people, but seriously doubt it's enough for 95% of people. I also think you effectively need to half the quoted range figure, as there is little guarantee of a charging point at your destination - so it's max 50km/31miles each way. Of course, even if there is a charger at your destination, it's going to take a long time time charge, so may not be convenient in any case.

maccard 7y ago
A 30 mile journey in most of Europe isn't the same as a 30 mile journey in the US. There's a saying - Americans think 100 years is a long time, and Europeans think 100 miles is a long way. A 60 mile round trip is probably about the longest daily commute you could manage in many parts of Europe
- GordonS 7y ago
  > A 60 mile round trip is probably about the longest daily commute you could manage in many parts of Europe I don't understand this? I'm in Scotland, and know multiple people that commute 120 miles (round-trip) in a day; not sure why you think the location in Europe matters.
- seszett 7y ago
  > A 60 mile round trip is probably about the longest daily commute you could manage in many parts of Europe I think you're quite underestimating distances in Europe. Here in Belgium, it's common enough to commute from West Flanders to Antwerp, a 100km (60 miles) commute one-way. My case is a bit special as I commute from Antwerp to Lille in France (130km or 80 miles) although only one day of week thankfully. 30 miles one-way is the average commuting distance for people who live in Wallonia and work in Brussels, for example[0]. Looking at the stats in France[1], I see that the median commuting distance for the 1.7 million people that commute between two different urban areas is 30 miles, meaning half of those have a commute longer than 60 miles round trip. Such commuting distances are not nearly as uncommon as you seem to think. [0]https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_wwv_2017-2018_nl.pdf https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_... (Dutch) or https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_wwv_2017-2018fr.pdf https://mobilit.belgium.be/sites/default/files/final_report_... (French) [1]https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1280781 https://www.insee.fr/fr/statistiques/1280781

masklinn 7y ago

> 100km range fits the commuting needs of 95% of the people in western Europe. There's a bunch of problems with this though: * Finding charging spots can be difficult, most workplaces don't provide them, many residential buildings don't either, if you live in the city and park outside just forget about it entirely, finding a spot is already hell; having to waste an hour charging every two days makes the "fit" way worse, even more so when the few charging spots are completely out of your way. * The range figures are usually without A/C or heating, both of which eat significantly into EV range. * It's nice that 100km range fits into people's commuting needs, but there's no provision for non-commuting, how do you go see your parents, or on holidays, or drop by friends a few cities over, or go to your cousin's wedding? My own commute is like 15km, but if I were to get a car (rather than use public transport) I'd get a plug-in hybrid: sure a 100km EV is more than enough for my commute (I even have an electrified parking spot), but a trip to go back to the family is 600km, and that's if I don't go and see cousins or whatever. Even if there were enough charging stations on the way (there aren't) transforming a ~6h trip into 8~10 would not be fine. Hell, with a 100km range I couldn't even round-trip to the nearest ikea on a full charge. So sure, if you've got the money and room (aka a house at least) to own two cars and keep one charging overnight you can get a short-range EV for your commuting. Not sure that's the majority though…

southerndrift 7y ago
>How do you go see your parents, or on holidays, or drop by friends a few cities over, or go to your cousin's wedding? Rent a car or go by train/plane.
- masklinn 7y ago
  So you have to pay for a car and you have to pay for the car not actually working as a car?
  - southerndrift 7y ago
    Yes. Depending on your usage pattern, you are better off buying that cheap low-range car and paying for additional transport when needed.

mikeash 7y ago

Short range could be OK. But their justification for it is just silly. Say that it’s to save money or something!