5 ms·

That's not entrapment. At least in the US, entrapment has to pass two tests: 1. Was it a crime the suspect was unlikely or unwilling to commit otherwise? (The

by tjohns 7y ago

That's not entrapment. At least in the US, entrapment has to pass two tests: 1. Was it a crime the suspect was unlikely or unwilling to commit otherwise? (The "subjective" test.) 2. Did the actions of officers cause a normally law-abiding person to commit a crime? (The "objective" test.) In other words, entrapment is when the police actively cause somebody to commit a crime they wouldn't have otherwise committed in similar circumstances. In the article, the police just left a case of beer inside a car. The police created a passive opportunity, but that's not enough for entrapment... the act of steeling that beer was entirely self meditated.

DoreenMichele 7y ago
It's essentially entrapment, or not far from it. That sentence has two qualifiers. I still have two people telling me I'm wrong. In my youth, I would have agreed that a thing should just not be touched if it's not yours because maybe they will come back for it. Someday. I'm still inclined to generally err in that direction, but I'm less judgy than I used to be of people who would be inclined to feel that a perishable -- like beer -- left out in the open for days on end must be basically abandoned and up for grabs because people don't typically buy consumables like that and leave them sitting out for days on end. It's not normal behavior. It was intended to be temptation. Whether it meets the legal definition of entrapment or not, it makes for a town I don't really want to visit. There's no telling how far down this slippery slope they will go to keep themselves entertained and prove their paychecks aren't simply a waste of money. I raised two kids. I've thought quite a lot about such things. I think setting up a "test" of that sort to see who will fall for it isn't nice behavior and shouldn't be done, especially not if your real motive is merely because you are bored.
- DangitBobby 7y ago
  I don't understand how you think this way about ownership. If it's not yours and you don't enter into a transaction (the transaction can be implied in the case of give-aways) wherein the previous owner grants you ownership, then it stays not yours. Things in a car are pretty unambiguously not up-for-grabs to anyone who doesn't own the car.
  - DoreenMichele 7y ago
    Things aren't always that cut and dried. For example: What if the car is also abandoned? I was raised to be extremely upstanding and responsible etc. But you can take that too far, which is why we have and need laws that cover when certain things end: statutes of limitations, laws declaring when property is deemed abandoned, etc. Every state in the US has laws in place that spell out under what conditions the government or another party can claim your real estate. The local government typically claims it if you haven't paid your taxes in X amount of time and resells it. If it is mortgaged, the bank can claim it if you fail to pay for X amount of time. States also spell out when a total stranger can file legal claim on your real estate. This usually involves them openly living there, getting their mail there and paying the utilities and the like for a number of years. Most states require a period of between ten and twenty years. The most liberal states only require five years. The most conservative -- Texas -- requires 30 years. Countries that don't have solid processes in place for returning seemingly abandoned real estate to use by allowing some other party to establish legal claim to it wind up having extremely thorny problems, including intractable poverty for large swaths of the population. Problems with trying to establish clear legal ownership in countries with overly conservative laws or traditions in that regard is one of the biggest challenges faced by Habitat for Humanity. Lack of ability to readily and easily say "We don't think they are coming back for it, and if they do, too bad so sad, time's up" actively undermines a functional society far worse than the occasional petty crime (such as some swiped beer). I'm personally excessively conservative about such things. But I'm old enough to recognize that different people draw those lines in different places and that people less conservative than me don't necessarily deserve to be viewed as bad actors. They certainly don't deserve to be tricked into committing a crime so that bored police officers have something to do.
    - mieseratte 7y ago
      > For example: What if the car is also abandoned? It is still not yours, and it is not your decision to make.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
rhacker 7y ago
I need help with this one since you have some experience. School bus 6am with its blinking lights in Mountain View CA about 8 years ago my wife got pulled over for driving past (she slowed down but didn't stop and wait). So if this happened at 8 am it would have been kinda legit. This was at 6am where there are no kids outside, taking buses. Entrapment?
- Freak_NL 7y ago
  No. You don't get to make that call. A stop sign (or in this case a school bus that obliges you to stop) means stop, so you stop. Perhaps a school started early because of a special event? Perhaps a driver in training was making his rounds with an empty bus? You can't know. Don't try to water down reasonable traffic laws because you think you know better. It's not entrapment, because no decent driver would be tempted to ignore a school bus with its blinkers on.
  - thaumasiotes 7y ago
    > You don't get to make that call. A stop sign (or in this case a school bus that obliges you to stop) means stop, so you stop. Suppose you're on a motorcycle, you come to a traffic light, and it's red. It's the middle of the night, there is no traffic, and the light will never turn green, because your motorcycle isn't heavy enough to trigger the sensor in the road. This is a pretty common case. Do you need to leave the bike there until day comes and car traffic arrives to save you?
    - zaarn 7y ago
      All traffic lights I've encountered that are triggered use magnetic triggers and work with bikes. Additionally their failsafe for night operation is to go into yield-traffic mode; the yellow light blinks, indicating that the intersection is no longer governed by the light but by the normal right-of-way. As a last option, you can trigger the pedestrian light manually by getting of your bike.
      - rxhernandez 7y ago

by tjohns 7y ago

DoreenMichele 7y ago

It's essentially entrapment, or not far from it. That sentence has two qualifiers. I still have two people telling me I'm wrong. In my youth, I would have agreed that a thing should just not be touched if it's not yours because maybe they will come back for it. Someday. I'm still inclined to generally err in that direction, but I'm less judgy than I used to be of people who would be inclined to feel that a perishable -- like beer -- left out in the open for days on end must be basically abandoned and up for grabs because people don't typically buy consumables like that and leave them sitting out for days on end. It's not normal behavior. It was intended to be temptation. Whether it meets the legal definition of entrapment or not, it makes for a town I don't really want to visit. There's no telling how far down this slippery slope they will go to keep themselves entertained and prove their paychecks aren't simply a waste of money. I raised two kids. I've thought quite a lot about such things. I think setting up a "test" of that sort to see who will fall for it isn't nice behavior and shouldn't be done, especially not if your real motive is merely because you are bored.

DangitBobby 7y ago
I don't understand how you think this way about ownership. If it's not yours and you don't enter into a transaction (the transaction can be implied in the case of give-aways) wherein the previous owner grants you ownership, then it stays not yours. Things in a car are pretty unambiguously not up-for-grabs to anyone who doesn't own the car.
- DoreenMichele 7y ago
  Things aren't always that cut and dried. For example: What if the car is also abandoned? I was raised to be extremely upstanding and responsible etc. But you can take that too far, which is why we have and need laws that cover when certain things end: statutes of limitations, laws declaring when property is deemed abandoned, etc. Every state in the US has laws in place that spell out under what conditions the government or another party can claim your real estate. The local government typically claims it if you haven't paid your taxes in X amount of time and resells it. If it is mortgaged, the bank can claim it if you fail to pay for X amount of time. States also spell out when a total stranger can file legal claim on your real estate. This usually involves them openly living there, getting their mail there and paying the utilities and the like for a number of years. Most states require a period of between ten and twenty years. The most liberal states only require five years. The most conservative -- Texas -- requires 30 years. Countries that don't have solid processes in place for returning seemingly abandoned real estate to use by allowing some other party to establish legal claim to it wind up having extremely thorny problems, including intractable poverty for large swaths of the population. Problems with trying to establish clear legal ownership in countries with overly conservative laws or traditions in that regard is one of the biggest challenges faced by Habitat for Humanity. Lack of ability to readily and easily say "We don't think they are coming back for it, and if they do, too bad so sad, time's up" actively undermines a functional society far worse than the occasional petty crime (such as some swiped beer). I'm personally excessively conservative about such things. But I'm old enough to recognize that different people draw those lines in different places and that people less conservative than me don't necessarily deserve to be viewed as bad actors. They certainly don't deserve to be tricked into committing a crime so that bored police officers have something to do.
  - mieseratte 7y ago
    > For example: What if the car is also abandoned? It is still not yours, and it is not your decision to make.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]

rhacker 7y ago

I need help with this one since you have some experience. School bus 6am with its blinking lights in Mountain View CA about 8 years ago my wife got pulled over for driving past (she slowed down but didn't stop and wait). So if this happened at 8 am it would have been kinda legit. This was at 6am where there are no kids outside, taking buses. Entrapment?

Freak_NL 7y ago
No. You don't get to make that call. A stop sign (or in this case a school bus that obliges you to stop) means stop, so you stop. Perhaps a school started early because of a special event? Perhaps a driver in training was making his rounds with an empty bus? You can't know. Don't try to water down reasonable traffic laws because you think you know better. It's not entrapment, because no decent driver would be tempted to ignore a school bus with its blinkers on.
- thaumasiotes 7y ago
  > You don't get to make that call. A stop sign (or in this case a school bus that obliges you to stop) means stop, so you stop. Suppose you're on a motorcycle, you come to a traffic light, and it's red. It's the middle of the night, there is no traffic, and the light will never turn green, because your motorcycle isn't heavy enough to trigger the sensor in the road. This is a pretty common case. Do you need to leave the bike there until day comes and car traffic arrives to save you?
  - zaarn 7y ago
    All traffic lights I've encountered that are triggered use magnetic triggers and work with bikes. Additionally their failsafe for night operation is to go into yield-traffic mode; the yellow light blinks, indicating that the intersection is no longer governed by the light but by the normal right-of-way. As a last option, you can trigger the pedestrian light manually by getting of your bike.
    - rxhernandez 7y ago