4 ms·

When we redline, assign schools without regard to quality, hassle folks for petty infractions to pump revenue, sieze assets without due process, limit entrepren

When we redline, assign schools without regard to quality, hassle folks for petty infractions to pump revenue, sieze assets without due process, limit entrepreneurship with onerous licensing requirements, and imprison poor folks at higher rates you end up with a perpetual underclass.

non-entity 7y ago
> limit entrepreneurship with onerous licensing requirements I work for a government agency that provides professional licensing in my state and was shocked the other day to learn that you need a license to operate as a "hair braider". This seemed a bit excessive to me
- cglace 7y ago
  In some places you need a license to wash hair.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.
    - fatbird 7y ago
      Leave it to the HN community to view a lice outbreak as an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of the market.
      - giancarlostoro 7y ago
        It is not necessarily HNs view but the reason for the license.
      - kalleboo 7y ago
        I'm from a western European nation (often referred to as "socialist") with none of that licensing BS and as far as I know we don't have perpetual lice outbreaks.
      - cglace 7y ago
        Are you saying lice outbreaks would not happen if we did not have a free market?
    - cglace 7y ago
      To go a step further we probably should license dish washers. To make sure they know the risks of spreading food borne disease.
      - fatbird 7y ago
        Look up Typhoid Mary [0]. We don't licence dish washers because running a restaurant requires adhering to a large body of commercial food safety law that requires the restaurant owner/operator to maintain standards of hygiene. If freelance dish washing were a thing, we probably would licence them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
        cglace 7y ago
        Having been a microbiologist in a past life I'm very familiar with Typhoid Mary. I do however think you are attacking a straw man. "Under Board of Cosmetology regulations, an individual “must complete not less than 300 hours of instruction on the theory and practice of shampooing” at an approved school. That instruction includes how to answer the phone, order products, information about the composition of shampoos, and on the Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s rules governing hair salons." Would you approve of dishwashers needing 300 hours of training on ordering soap, answering phones, waiting tables, and washing hands?
        fatbird 7y ago
        You ignored the substance of my point: a dishwasher is an employee of a licenced/regulated business operator, who is answerable to a regulatory regime. The state has a regulatory handle on the dishwasher already, and doesn't need to licence them or force them to take training to ensure minimal standards. Cosmetologists are usually independent contractors and are the responsible party, equivalent in legal terms to the restaurant owner/operator, not the dishwasher.
        cglace 7y ago
        I understand what you are saying. However, I believe your conclusion is absurd. Considering most of the US does not require licensing for a "shampoo technician", it would appear you are arguing for something that is currently a fringe practice to become mainstream. Is that correct? Also, a cosmetologist and a shampoo technician are two distinct positions.
- sokoloff 7y ago
  That license may also require formal schooling in the amounts of many hundreds of hours of instruction as well...
  - fatbird 7y ago
    But what it usually requires is an eight hour course in which you're told repeatedly that you need to sterilize combs in a solution that kills lice so you don't spread lice. Let's not pretend that licencing requirements are always some sinister cartel action to limit the number of nail-painters in a given municipality. Usually they're just a response to some obviously avoidable consequence of a large number of unlicenced practitioners paying little attention to minimal standards.
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      Have you done a survey of different state laws to determine what is usual or did you just give the state apparatus the benefit of the doubt and assume it was sane? I give you TN >But after doing that for a few months, Tammy heard from officials at the state Cosmetology Board, informing her that she could not continue washing hair because she lacks a governmental license to do so. Under Board of Cosmetology regulations, an individual “must complete not less than 300 hours of instruction on the theory and practice of shampooing” at an approved school. https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/05/13/you-need-300-hours-of-training-and-a-license-to-shampoo-hair/#25216ddd1ebc https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/05/13/you-need-... Here in Washington state hair design requires 1,400 hours plus 1750 hours apprenticeship. This is the equivalent of working full time for a year and a half. Looking at a list of every US state https://nacams.org/cosmetology-states/ https://nacams.org/cosmetology-states/ How many of them require an 8 hour course?
      - fatbird 7y ago
        Note that cosmetology isn't just hair-washing: it covers a wide range of applying a variety of substances to people's hair and skin, often near orifices that more easily absorb toxic subatances like eyes or mouths. Note that the person who wrote the first article you linked to lists his occupation as "I write on the damage big government does, especially to education." Note that you elide simple hair washing with 'hair design' and its much more onerous requirement of cosmetology school or apprencticeship (not both). Did you just assume that all regulation is bullshit and let a quick google search provide your argument?
- Aperocky 7y ago
  How else will government bureaucracy grow itself? Create more bureaucratic hurdles in the name of safety/regulation and create the need write 800 documents so they can hire the closest relative that graduated from English Literature.
- Empact 7y ago
  The Institute for Justice has been challenging laws requiring licensing for hair braiders in the courts and has successfully overturned them in several states. https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/ https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/
  - egdod 7y ago
    Not just braiding. They challenge lots of different types of (unnecessary, protectionist) licensing requirements.

non-entity 7y ago

> limit entrepreneurship with onerous licensing requirements I work for a government agency that provides professional licensing in my state and was shocked the other day to learn that you need a license to operate as a "hair braider". This seemed a bit excessive to me

cglace 7y ago
In some places you need a license to wash hair.
- fatbird 7y ago
  Because without minimal standards for sterilizing tools, hair dressers can spread lice. Basic licencing requirements give the municipality a chance to ensure that everyone washing hair has been told about basic hygienic standards for washing hair.
  - fatbird 7y ago
    Leave it to the HN community to view a lice outbreak as an acceptable price to pay for the freedom of the market.
    - giancarlostoro 7y ago
      It is not necessarily HNs view but the reason for the license.
    - kalleboo 7y ago
      I'm from a western European nation (often referred to as "socialist") with none of that licensing BS and as far as I know we don't have perpetual lice outbreaks.
    - cglace 7y ago
      Are you saying lice outbreaks would not happen if we did not have a free market?
  - cglace 7y ago
    To go a step further we probably should license dish washers. To make sure they know the risks of spreading food borne disease.
    - fatbird 7y ago
      Look up Typhoid Mary [0]. We don't licence dish washers because running a restaurant requires adhering to a large body of commercial food safety law that requires the restaurant owner/operator to maintain standards of hygiene. If freelance dish washing were a thing, we probably would licence them. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
      - cglace 7y ago
        Having been a microbiologist in a past life I'm very familiar with Typhoid Mary. I do however think you are attacking a straw man. "Under Board of Cosmetology regulations, an individual “must complete not less than 300 hours of instruction on the theory and practice of shampooing” at an approved school. That instruction includes how to answer the phone, order products, information about the composition of shampoos, and on the Occupational Safety and Health Administration’s rules governing hair salons." Would you approve of dishwashers needing 300 hours of training on ordering soap, answering phones, waiting tables, and washing hands?
        fatbird 7y ago
        You ignored the substance of my point: a dishwasher is an employee of a licenced/regulated business operator, who is answerable to a regulatory regime. The state has a regulatory handle on the dishwasher already, and doesn't need to licence them or force them to take training to ensure minimal standards. Cosmetologists are usually independent contractors and are the responsible party, equivalent in legal terms to the restaurant owner/operator, not the dishwasher.
        cglace 7y ago
        I understand what you are saying. However, I believe your conclusion is absurd. Considering most of the US does not require licensing for a "shampoo technician", it would appear you are arguing for something that is currently a fringe practice to become mainstream. Is that correct? Also, a cosmetologist and a shampoo technician are two distinct positions.
sokoloff 7y ago
That license may also require formal schooling in the amounts of many hundreds of hours of instruction as well...
- fatbird 7y ago
  But what it usually requires is an eight hour course in which you're told repeatedly that you need to sterilize combs in a solution that kills lice so you don't spread lice. Let's not pretend that licencing requirements are always some sinister cartel action to limit the number of nail-painters in a given municipality. Usually they're just a response to some obviously avoidable consequence of a large number of unlicenced practitioners paying little attention to minimal standards.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    Have you done a survey of different state laws to determine what is usual or did you just give the state apparatus the benefit of the doubt and assume it was sane? I give you TN >But after doing that for a few months, Tammy heard from officials at the state Cosmetology Board, informing her that she could not continue washing hair because she lacks a governmental license to do so. Under Board of Cosmetology regulations, an individual “must complete not less than 300 hours of instruction on the theory and practice of shampooing” at an approved school. https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/05/13/you-need-300-hours-of-training-and-a-license-to-shampoo-hair/#25216ddd1ebc https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/2016/05/13/you-need-... Here in Washington state hair design requires 1,400 hours plus 1750 hours apprenticeship. This is the equivalent of working full time for a year and a half. Looking at a list of every US state https://nacams.org/cosmetology-states/ https://nacams.org/cosmetology-states/ How many of them require an 8 hour course?
    - fatbird 7y ago
      Note that cosmetology isn't just hair-washing: it covers a wide range of applying a variety of substances to people's hair and skin, often near orifices that more easily absorb toxic subatances like eyes or mouths. Note that the person who wrote the first article you linked to lists his occupation as "I write on the damage big government does, especially to education." Note that you elide simple hair washing with 'hair design' and its much more onerous requirement of cosmetology school or apprencticeship (not both). Did you just assume that all regulation is bullshit and let a quick google search provide your argument?
Aperocky 7y ago
How else will government bureaucracy grow itself? Create more bureaucratic hurdles in the name of safety/regulation and create the need write 800 documents so they can hire the closest relative that graduated from English Literature.
Empact 7y ago
The Institute for Justice has been challenging laws requiring licensing for hair braiders in the courts and has successfully overturned them in several states. https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/ https://ij.org/issues/economic-liberty/braiding/
- egdod 7y ago
  Not just braiding. They challenge lots of different types of (unnecessary, protectionist) licensing requirements.