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It's worth noting that problems like this are pretty normal for new weapons systems. Th V-22 Osprey is a good example here: it seemed like a disaster when it c

It's worth noting that problems like this are pretty normal for new weapons systems. Th V-22 Osprey is a good example here: it seemed like a disaster when it came out, but it's now got its kinks worked out and is performing really well.

kwindla 7y ago
If you're interested in big engineering projects and how they work culturally/politically as well as technologically, Richard Whittle's book about the V-22 Osprey is really worth reading. _The Dream Machine: The Untold History of the Notorious V-22 Osprey_
- ware_am_i 7y ago
  Thanks for the recommendation! I'm in the midst of a big and culturally/politically challenging engineering project and eager to learn... so much so that I signed up for a library card and checked out the ebook from the LA Public Library!
  - JBlue42 7y ago
    That library card comes with tons of other benefits too. Free streaming on Kanopy, NYT membership, museum discounts / passes (https://www.lapl.org/explorela https://www.lapl.org/explorela).
SkyMarshal 7y ago
It also seems to be pretty normal in these cases for the media to report on it as if it's not normal. And worse, to sometimes use language like "can't", implying an unsolvable problem. In this particular case it appears that two of the elevators are working, and the rest have hit snags due to mismeasurements that can be fixed with some re-welding. Behind schedule, but the tech appears to be fundamentally viable.
neurobashing 7y ago
I think the fear is that we don’t have 20 years to spend on this ship, the F-35, etc. Eg, fixing the problems with the M16 wasn’t that hard: chrome the chamber and change the training program fixed a lot for very little cost and without too many casualties (you can always pull m14s out of inventory!) Not so with an aircraft carrier, destroyer (rounds for the Zumwalt will never be made), and maybe the F35 will only occasionally decapitate it’s pilots
- credit_guy 7y ago
  > rounds for the Zumwalt will never be made You can look at this as an example of how bad things are, or how good things are. For those who don't know, the Zumwalt class of destroyers is equipped with a special 155mm gun that can fire projectiles up to 160 km [1]. This gun can only fire a certain type of rounds that were produced and tested, but they turned out to be much more expensive than initially projected (by a factor of about 25, from $35k to $900k) [2]. The Navy decided to cancel the order, and to pivot [3]. "The Navy announced in February in budget justification documents that it intended to integrate Raytheon’s SM-6 missile and was changing the mission from a land-attack platform to a ship killer. In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee’s seapower subcommittee, Vice Adm. Bill Merz told senators that the slow development of the AGS prompted the change. [...] The Navy has moved ahead with a plan to add SM-6 on to Zumwalt, which allows the Navy to engage surface targets and extremely long ranges among other missions. In August, the Navy shot down a medium-range ballistic missile target with the SM-6, which uses a fragmenting explosion near its target as the kill mechanism." In Silicon Valley people generally appreciate a good pivot, so some people may appreciate this one too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Projectile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Project... [3] https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/04/19/advanced-gun-system-was-holding-back-the-navys-new-stealth-destroyer/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/04/19/advanced-gun-sy...
  - frankharv 7y ago
    CASREP[0] in the ditch was pretty funny to me [0]https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/11/22/destroyer-zumwalt-breaks-down-and-gets-tow-in-panama-canal/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/11/22/destroye...
alexhutcheson 7y ago
Pretty much every significant DoD acquisition has been like this: late and over-budget. Incidentally, those are features of almost every major software project I'm aware of as well. Obviously that's not a good pattern, and the DoD should certainly improve its procurement process, but it's not the existential crisis it's made out to be in the media sometimes. The contractors keep working, and the system eventually is in a working state.
Already__Taken 7y ago
the war nerd has a scathing post about the v22 and Americas problems which I think is a great observation

kwindla 7y ago

If you're interested in big engineering projects and how they work culturally/politically as well as technologically, Richard Whittle's book about the V-22 Osprey is really worth reading. _The Dream Machine: The Untold History of the Notorious V-22 Osprey_

ware_am_i 7y ago
Thanks for the recommendation! I'm in the midst of a big and culturally/politically challenging engineering project and eager to learn... so much so that I signed up for a library card and checked out the ebook from the LA Public Library!
- JBlue42 7y ago
  That library card comes with tons of other benefits too. Free streaming on Kanopy, NYT membership, museum discounts / passes (https://www.lapl.org/explorela https://www.lapl.org/explorela).

SkyMarshal 7y ago

It also seems to be pretty normal in these cases for the media to report on it as if it's not normal. And worse, to sometimes use language like "can't", implying an unsolvable problem. In this particular case it appears that two of the elevators are working, and the rest have hit snags due to mismeasurements that can be fixed with some re-welding. Behind schedule, but the tech appears to be fundamentally viable.

neurobashing 7y ago

I think the fear is that we don’t have 20 years to spend on this ship, the F-35, etc. Eg, fixing the problems with the M16 wasn’t that hard: chrome the chamber and change the training program fixed a lot for very little cost and without too many casualties (you can always pull m14s out of inventory!) Not so with an aircraft carrier, destroyer (rounds for the Zumwalt will never be made), and maybe the F35 will only occasionally decapitate it’s pilots

credit_guy 7y ago
> rounds for the Zumwalt will never be made You can look at this as an example of how bad things are, or how good things are. For those who don't know, the Zumwalt class of destroyers is equipped with a special 155mm gun that can fire projectiles up to 160 km [1]. This gun can only fire a certain type of rounds that were produced and tested, but they turned out to be much more expensive than initially projected (by a factor of about 25, from $35k to $900k) [2]. The Navy decided to cancel the order, and to pivot [3]. "The Navy announced in February in budget justification documents that it intended to integrate Raytheon’s SM-6 missile and was changing the mission from a land-attack platform to a ship killer. In testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee’s seapower subcommittee, Vice Adm. Bill Merz told senators that the slow development of the AGS prompted the change. [...] The Navy has moved ahead with a plan to add SM-6 on to Zumwalt, which allows the Navy to engage surface targets and extremely long ranges among other missions. In August, the Navy shot down a medium-range ballistic missile target with the SM-6, which uses a fragmenting explosion near its target as the kill mechanism." In Silicon Valley people generally appreciate a good pivot, so some people may appreciate this one too. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Gun_System [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Projectile https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Land_Attack_Project... [3] https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/04/19/advanced-gun-system-was-holding-back-the-navys-new-stealth-destroyer/ https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/04/19/advanced-gun-sy...
- frankharv 7y ago
  CASREP[0] in the ditch was pretty funny to me [0]https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/11/22/destroyer-zumwalt-breaks-down-and-gets-tow-in-panama-canal/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/11/22/destroye...

alexhutcheson 7y ago

Pretty much every significant DoD acquisition has been like this: late and over-budget. Incidentally, those are features of almost every major software project I'm aware of as well. Obviously that's not a good pattern, and the DoD should certainly improve its procurement process, but it's not the existential crisis it's made out to be in the media sometimes. The contractors keep working, and the system eventually is in a working state.

Already__Taken 7y ago

the war nerd has a scathing post about the v22 and Americas problems which I think is a great observation